Does somebody have to die before a change is made?? Pitcher flown to hospital after being hit with

[cz fastpitch fan]

Does one of our kids have to die before a change is made?? Pitcher flown to hospital after being hit with line drive.

http://www.tristatehomepage.com/news/local-news/players-react-to-softball-accident/692653954

When will we finally see change?
How many more of these stories do we have to see?

 

[VE_05]

I took my team to the ohio state vs indiana college softball game on friday. Indiana's starting pitching is a girl who our high school team played in the division 1 state championship so the girls though it was cool to see her. But, the indiana pitcher was wearing a facemask and is in college. I encourage them for our team. But it was nice for the girls to see a college girl wearing one.

 

[Pacerdad57]

as we all know, nothing is going to happen until a nationally recognized sporting association figures out a way to set a safety standard that all masks must meet from the mfr.
no standard exists, so no one is going to take the liability of making mandatory a mask that is not certified by a national testing institute. it would open up any association doing so to a massive liability.
not saying this is right or justified, its just the truth.
it falls on the parents and coaches to implore the use of a facemask, for all infielders in the lower ages and at least the corners and pitchers in the higher age brackets. the more girls that are used to regularly wearing them coming up, the more likely they are to wear them at collegiate levels. my DD doesn't go on the field without hers.

 

[Rocket8]

Pacer - what kind of standards are you looking for in regards to the mask? Or are you talking about standard or requirements to wear a mask? Have you seen any instances of a player wearing a mask and it failed to protect the player? Rip Its are designed to stop the impact of the ball to the face, I have seen a few instances live as a coach and parent - where it has done just that. I cant speak for the other masks - especially the plastic ones, but the Rip Its are constructed very similar to their batting helmet face guards. In one instance a player suffered a bad concussion as the ball grazed off the top of the mask and also hit her head. She would have been split wide open if it had not been for her Rip It. As far as I know their are no certified face masks on the market. Helmets yes. I would suggest that parents talk to their coaches and other parents about face masks - my DD pitches and plays the corners and wears her mask every time she is i one of those spots. Her HS coached asked her why she wears it at first - "you never see hot shots at 1B like 3B" - so maybe the issue here is not the players or parents? Or is it peer pressure or uneducated coaches. When I was coaching if a player decided not to wear a mask - I had a conversation with the player and then the parent, discussed my concerns with them and ultimately it is their decision as they get older. Younger age groups it was mandatory by organization. Also had a player who wore her mask religiously in the infield at SS during travel season, played 3B in High School and never wore it (reason - coach felt it showed weakness). So dont feel you can lay this on manufacturers. League governing bodies or schools need to be on board as well. Ultimately if my DD feels she wants to wear it - she will wear it or play for someone else. In the infield is her decision - on the mound is mandatory by her parents. End of story. My personal opinion - on the mound 100%. 1B and 3B - up to players and parents comfort level. At the end of the day everyone should be looking out for the players best interest.

 

[daboss]

People, you are missing the message. There is no rule against wearing a mask. Everyone upset right now say it with me out loud "there is no rule against wearing a mask."

Perhaps we should practice another saying, "I have no right to tell other parents how to raise their children." I don't care how hard you try. Unless you are reporting abuse to the police or Child Services the statement rings the truth.

As mentioned above by Pacerdad57, there is an issue of liability that needs dealt with before anyone is going to tangle with legal responsibility. JoeA could probably shed some light of the legal sides of the debate but the harsh reality is, "there is no rule against wearing a mask."

Everyone calm down and deal with your own. Say a quiet prayer the young lady is okay, then go watch the boys play baseball. Remember, it's been a school sport much longer than softball. Just saying...................

 

[Stedman00]

my DD wears it when she crosses the foul lines, period. plays P, 3b & 1b. has worn it since starting travel ball at 12u. Never had a close call, but why take the chance? I've seen her hit two girls playing 3b, both would have been injured without wearing mask, versus, wipe it off and back in the game.

BTW, I've seen some real power hitting lefties that were just as capable of the hot shot to 1b as any player to 3b.

No coach on any level will ever publicly come out and condemn or forbid a player from wearing these masks. Huge liability issue.

 

[Pacerdad57]

They actually will come out and condemn wearing a mask, have seen and heard of instances of this in the past. The standards everyone is looking for are a national standards ratings of required yield stresses on the mask material and type of construction. Welds have to stand up to a minimum stress, steel cage has to also, and on ad nauseum. NO STANDARD EXISTS AT ANY LEVEL FOR A FACEMASK! The national underwriter for football helmets, baseball helmets etc. ( can't remember the letters) does not have a standard testing criteria for facemasks. It is an expensive (VERY) procedure to acquire, but it cannot be acquired if it does not exist. With no national level of standardization in existence no governing body is going to take on the liability of requiring a mask be worn. If something happens to the mask and the girls l is injured because of it, that organization ceases to exist. They would assume the liability of having forced a girl to wear a mask that failed and contributed to serious injury. Do you think a governing body is willing to take this on when they don't have to??
And oddly according to the research I have seen and spoken to the researchers about, the most injuries are not from batted, but from thrown balls.
Sadly nothing will happen until this first issue of manufacturing standardization is addressed and fixed. And this is not a manufacturer's problem, they make a good safety product, it's a national certification problem, what it has to withstand, etc. it is a very costly procedure, paid by all manufactures, but it DOES NOT EXIST, therefore it cannot be enforced by anyone.
All that being said, it is a smart Item to use I feel. My DD uses hers, but if a parent isn't on board with this piece of equipment, there is no way (and I waffle on whether there should be a way) to make them use it.
So if you want your child to wear it,'make them do so. Once they get used to wearing it, if they keep on wearing it for their entire career, all the better. Be you will never be able to force another person's child to do so over their and their parents objection.

 

[CARDS]

The worst pitcher hit by a ball I seen was at the 14U NSA-A World Series...Lady from the Ill Chill took a direct shot to the nose and mouth. Literately, she had no nose and the only thing holding her teeth in was the wire on her braces in the back.
I doubt that lady ever played again.

Back in the late 90s when I was playing Mens A/Major a few guys wore headgear. Now go to any A / Major mens game and they are all wearing them. (Even at the lower levels they are wearing them or facemask). Not because it is a rule but because the players have evolved with the sport. The mens baggy uniforms now cover, Impact vest/shirts, Soccer shin guards heck even the wristbands now have impact protection. Baseball is using impact protection under the uniform. I even seen a story on a MLB pitcher wearing a helmet hat.

I had my DD in impact protection for years and it never hurt her college coach interest. Hell most did not even know when she had it on...
It was amazing, when we were playing how other teams would say she was cheating. No we were just smarter....and it does allow for a competitive advantage if use properly...

It comes down to educating a lot of womens college coaches and travel ball coaches. There are many that really do not know about the various player protection equipment available. (Some do not even know the difference in performance equipment) and I am talking the Division 1 level...

Bottom line is...the safety equipment is out there. Been there for years, It does not take a rule change to get players to use it. (Maybe a death or serious injury) So there is no excuse for one not to check into it.

If a parent says "but the college coaches frown on it" they are an idiot...It only takes one shot to change a life forever. Outside of the bats... the players are also getting better training, bigger, stronger so the risk is even greater now than 10 years ago.




Womens Slowpitch Head gear (one of many styles)

 

[cobb_of_fury]

What I HATE - is the older generation of players condemning players who wear masks as though they were weak or poor players for wearing them - I have heard this several times in the recent past on college broadcasts and in social media.

Bottom line: If you are a pitcher and you are not wearing a mask YOU ARE STUPID - The game is to fast and most girls are out of position to field after their pitch. It does not mean your a lesser player - Girls today are Generally Bigger , Better, Faster , More than they were even a few years ago. Bats are hotter and we know a shot to the dome ain't funny - Getting the bell rung isn't something to laugh off -

I agree with PD - you can not legislate that masks be worn because no one wants to be responsible - but as individuals we have to reinforce the use of masks in our sphere of influence, what ever that is - especially among the young girls - Point out those college players wearing them as roll models.

I saw a high school pitcher the other day who does not wear a mask. -( I have heard the travel organization she's with encourages them to get rid of the mask by high school - though I don't know if that's true or not).
This girl has a full body herky-jerky pitching style - not a great fielder to begin with but her awkward landing puts her in a vulnerable position and I fear for her every time I see her pitch. She got drilled in the thigh with a line drive in the game I was watching, she never lifted her glove to defend the ball - it happened to quick for her to react - I can see a power hitter staying on the ball and driving it straight into this poor girls face and she will never know what hit her.

 

[Hilliarddad3]

Nocsae batting face masks were mandated, so why can't one for pitchers be mandated? You don't like the rule if it comes out, don't play.......

Everyone whined when the batting one came out, but now it's a norm....... They are ball players a short time, they are beautiful ladies forever, let's keep them that way!

 

[Pacerdad57]

From what I've heard from manufacturers that I have interviewed the cost is astronomical, upwards of low 6 figures for manufacturer. Obviously driving up the cost per mask. Personally I'd go the money, my kid's worth it to me, but as for the ones who don't want them in the first place, well......
I don't think there is too high of a cost for our daughters lives.
It's a huge mess when it comes to certification on this, and again since no one can come to a concensus of what is even required to make a mask safe.....I'll keep doing my little part and have my DD wear hers and talk to pitchers and corners that don't and try to convince them to do so. Hell I saw a SS on last years team get her nose blown up on a grounder for the third time. She refused to wear a mask, her mother could not get her to wear it and the coach stood by and said not hint about masks to any of the girls. There is only so much that you're going to be able to accomplish so as stated above work hard at it in your own sphere of influence and feel good about some small accomplishments.

 

[coachjwb]

The team we put together last year to try to raise more visibility of this issue did a fair amount of research on this, and Mark talked to manufacturer(s) so he knows what he's talking about. Yes, there is no rule against wearing a face mask, but there is both peer pressure and coaching pressure times not to do so at times. While the incidence of injury is not as high as some other sports where safety equipment is mandated, the significance of such injuries can be catastrophic. Sports associations should have a responsibility to adequately protects it's participants, and they would be smart to do so as well before they are hit with a huge lawsuit as the result of such an injury or God forbid a death. It is just a matter of time unfortunately ... it shouldn't only be the players who are young enough or whose parents are smart enough to keep them safe from such an event. Education is helpful in the meantime, but no one can convince me otherwise that there shouldn't be a requirement for at least pitchers, and for anyone who plays within 40 feet or so of a batter. Baseball is a different sport ... I don't see anyone playing that close there.

 

[Pacerdad57]

The team we put together last year to try to raise more visibility of this issue did a fair amount of research on this, and Mark talked to manufacturer(s) so he knows what he's talking about. Yes, there is no rule against wearing a face mask, but there is both peer pressure and coaching pressure times not to do so at times. While the incidence of injury is not as high as some other sports where safety equipment is mandated, the significance of such injuries can be catastrophic. Sports associations should have a responsibility to adequately protects it's participants, and they would be smart to do so as well before they are hit with a huge lawsuit as the result of such an injury or God forbid a death. It is just a matter of time unfortunately ... it shouldn't only be the players who are young enough or whose parents are smart enough to keep them safe from such an event. Education is helpful in the meantime, but no one can convince me otherwise that there shouldn't be a requirement for at least pitchers, and for anyone who plays within 40 feet or so of a batter. Baseball is a different sport ... I don't see anyone playing that close there.

Good comments Coach.
i feel that it still has to start with some form of national certification of said equipment. until someone has that national certification behind a tested product absolving them of the majority of liability it won't happen.
no organization wants to open themselves up to that kind of lawsuit by mandating untested, un-certified equipment. i ran the numbers myself last year on times that it takes for the average hit ball per age group to reach the pitcher and the corners. these available reaction times were pretty extraordinarily fast. there are steps that could be made to other equipment to lessen the impact of being hit with a line drive. we all know the bats are mandated to not exceed a given exit speed at the factory, and we all know they get hotter than that before they die. bases and the rubber could be moved to give a bit more available reaction time. we all pretty much know the first example won't happen. big money in bats, they don't want to change those. moving the bases and rubber changes one of the basic tenets of the game, the quick play and speed.
so, to again beat a dead horse, this won't happen until someone forces a baseline to be created. and nocsea doesn't seem to be able to create that baseline, whether it be from a difficult engineering standpoint or simply the fact that the masses aren't clamoring at the mask producers doorsteps to get some form of criteria set up and passed on a national level to accomplish this.
maybe we as the concerned parents need to bring it more to the forefront to PGF USSSA ASA, etc.
in talking to some opf the manufacturer's over the last year, i found not a one who was adverse to a standard being created, they all want to protect the players. it's a high dollar deal to get this certification accomplished.
sadly money (as usual) is the driving force behind nothing happening.
so parents PLEASE think about this, determine what your acceptable risk level for your daughter is and take some action on a local (your household) level. i'm pretty positive that most parents don't want to put their daughters at risk to play a game they love. buy them a mask, and make sure they wear it.

 

[cobb_of_fury]

Good comments Coach.
i feel that it still has to start with some form of national certification of said equipment. until someone has that national certification behind a tested product absolving them of the majority of liability it won't happen.
no organization wants to open themselves up to that kind of lawsuit by mandating untested, un-certified equipment. i ran the numbers myself last year on times that it takes for the average hit ball per age group to reach the pitcher and the corners. these available reaction times were pretty extraordinarily fast. there are steps that could be made to other equipment to lessen the impact of being hit with a line drive. we all know the bats are mandated to not exceed a given exit speed at the factory, and we all know they get hotter than that before they die. bases and the rubber could be moved to give a bit more available reaction time. we all pretty much know the first example won't happen. big money in bats, they don't want to change those. moving the bases and rubber changes one of the basic tenets of the game, the quick play and speed.
so, to again beat a dead horse, this won't happen until someone forces a baseline to be created. and nocsea doesn't seem to be able to create that baseline, whether it be from a difficult engineering standpoint or simply the fact that the masses aren't clamoring at the mask producers doorsteps to get some form of criteria set up and passed on a national level to accomplish this.
maybe we as the concerned parents need to bring it more to the forefront to PGF USSSA ASA, etc.
in talking to some opf the manufacturer's over the last year, i found not a one who was adverse to a standard being created, they all want to protect the players. it's a high dollar deal to get this certification accomplished.
sadly money (as usual) is the driving force behind nothing happening.
so parents PLEASE think about this, determine what your acceptable risk level for your daughter is and take some action on a local (your household) level. i'm pretty positive that most parents don't want to put their daughters at risk to play a game they love. buy them a mask, and make sure they wear it.

I think part of the problem is that softball is to closely associated with baseball - and Baseball doesn't want / and probably doesn't need the kind of safety equipment were talking about - But baseball is a much different sport with a lot longer reaction time for pitcher and fielders.

However - I know players have died in baseball - and they are still slow to adopt any safety measures. Though I have noticed this year the larger and larger numbers of players with the face guard on the batting helmet - Maybe a step in the right direction.

What did it take to get safety equipment mandated in other sports?

 

[BretMan2]

Interesting that there is call for regulations where somebody might die, but you don't hear a peep about sports injuries where people have already died.

If potential death is our yardstick for measuring risk, then shouldn't somebody be doing something about this:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3445066/figure/fig2-1941738108330972/

 

[Pacerdad57]

Interesting that there is call for regulations where somebody might die, but you don't hear a peep about sports injuries where people have already died.

If potential death is our yardstick for measuring risk, then shouldn't somebody be doing something about this:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3445066/figure/fig2-1941738108330972/

This has been ongoing for quite a while, and again protective equipment does exist, again not certified by any type of national certification body that am I aware of, and again in talking with manufacturers and researchers, half the equipment to prevent this is of little or no value in relationship to what is claimed/needed.
I myself hate to think of protective equipment where death is the baseline measure. I'm sure most of us would much rather be pro-active about safety, but in the litigious world we live in it is harder than ever to get quality safety equipment certified, let alone having sub-par equipment on the market. I truly and strongly feel certification requirements should be arrived at, instituted and requirements of usage mandated. This is actually an area I wouldn't mind having the main National governing bodies mandate useage. Jmho

 

[yossarian]

I always shake my head every year at the "don't tread on my parenting" argument when this thread is reborn. I could make the same argument about seatbelts and carseats.

 

[cobb_of_fury]

Interesting that there is call for regulations where somebody might die, but you don't hear a peep about sports injuries where people have already died.

If potential death is our yardstick for measuring risk, then shouldn't somebody be doing something about this:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3445066/figure/fig2-1941738108330972/

Great Point Bret!! - My daughters 15 and still wears a heart guard - - YES this is especially necessary for young children !!

 

[cz fastpitch fan]

I am LOVING the discussion going on about this.
We can only pray that this same amount of discussion is going on with the players who are contemplating removing the masks, for fear they will be ridiculed.

 

[CARDS]

If sporting bodies can force "dental protection", chin straps etc. they can enforce face and head protection.

Mouth-guards are mandatory or highly recommended in most HS sports...This safety equipment has the backing of many Health providers but not all have any National Certification...In fact, some of the safety claims from Mouth Guard manufactures have found to be false as it relates to concussions and head trauma but they are still required in several sports.

Some mouth guards come with insurance (as does some other protective equipment to help the parent make the CHOICE to purchase).

I still think it is the parents responsibility first when it comes to any protective equipment. Heck Parents are not told to purchase, cleats, sun glasses, batting gloves etc. but they do.

If, governing bodies truly wanted too, they could pass some basic guidelines or recommendations that they already have with mouth guards, chin straps,helmets with face mask etc. Just takes the right guy in the right place...

This is a article on protecting your teeth OHSAA partner...(with a lot of other good info as well)...

http://www.nationwidechildrens.org/mouth-guards-in-sports-a-necessary-piece-of-equipment