DP/FLEX issues repeatedly with High School umpires this season

[coachtomv]

First off I want to say that I have the upmost respect for Umpires. Not an easy job, and I always do my best to help them and not be disrespectful.

I wanted to start a thread on this topic, as its a powerful coaching tool. The more we know as coaches, the better prepared we are to put our players in the position to be successful.

Here is a series of conversations that I had with "BretMan2TSZ/OFC Umpire in Chief" about my experiences so far this year coaching High School and the DP/Flex rule.


""I have a question, hopefully you can help me with. I looked it up and can't find the exact answer I need.

I had a lineup to start a game today like so:

1 Seaman (SS)
2 Hahn (CF)
3 Sommers (3rd)
4 Bourne (1st)
5 Fresch (LF)
6 E. Moore (P) - DP (batting)
7 M. McGranahan (RF)
8 C. McGranahan (C)
9 Brann (2nd)
10 A. Moore - Flex (not batting)

and 2 subs

I had players 1-9 on the field on defense and the Flex out to start, but planned on putting her in as we went.

The umpire said I needed to have the Flex in the game, but my understanding is that I "can" have the DP-Flex players in on defense at the same time, if I choose to, but its not required.

Can you shed some light on this, and maybe point me to something that explicitly says this?

Tom VanKirk
The USA Patriots WWAST Lady Warriors
-Manager Head coach
James A Garfield Garrettsville
-Manager Head coach

"Effort takes no talent. It’s just a decision that you make.”

https://www.facebook.com/WWASTLadyWarriors/

coachtomv, Apr 3, 2021Report

Reply

BretMan2TSZ/OFC Umpire in Chief

Here are your three options:

1) The FLEX is playing defense, the DP is not.

2) The FLEX is playing defense and the DP is playing defense for one of the players other than the FLEX.

3) The DP is playing defense, but the FLEX is not.

You were using option #3 which is perfectly legal. It means that the DP is playing defense for the FLEX. The FLEX has left the game.

If you wanted the FLEX to come back in later, she would have to use her one re-entry, since having the DP play defense for her counts as a substitution.

Hope that helps!

Bret

BretMan2, Apr 3, 2021Report

Reply

coachtomvActive Member

BretMan2 said: ↑

Here are your three options:

1) The FLEX is playing defense, the DP is not.

2) The FLEX is playing defense and the DP is playing defense for one of the players other than the FLEX.

3) The DP is playing defense, but the FLEX is not.

You were using option #3 which is perfectly legal. It means that the DP is playing defense for the FLEX. The FLEX has left the game.

If you wanted the FLEX to come back in later, she would have to use her one re-entry, since having the DP play defense for her counts as a substitution.

Hope that helps!

Bret

Click to expand...

You rock! That was exactly how I thought it works. Thanks buddy!

Tom VanKirk
The USA Patriots WWAST Lady Warriors
-Manager Head coach
James A Garfield Garrettsville
-Manager Head coach

"Effort takes no talent. It’s just a decision that you make.”

https://www.facebook.com/WWASTLadyWarriors/

coachtomv, Apr 3, 2021Report

Reply

coachtomvActive Member

Ok, we were playing game last night at Firestone stadium and this what happened for our DP/Flex lineup at the coaches meeting at home plate.

I had a lineup to start a game today like so:

1 Seaman (SS)
2 Hahn (CF)
3 Sommers (3rd)
4 Bourne (1st)
5 Fresch (2nd) - DP (batting)
6 Swigonski (RF)
7 E. Moore (P)
8 M. McGranahan (not in the field) "DP is in on defense for this player"-?
9 C. McGranahan (C)
10 A. Moore (LF) - Flex (not batting)

and 3 subs

Both the "2" Umpire's and the opposing coach argued that my DP had to be my #8 hitter, because she was not in the game and softball did nor have an "extra hitter"...??

I argued, quite loudly, that that's the whole point the DP "Designated player hits and can play defense for any another player in the lineup.

Am I crazy.

Tom VanKirk
The USA Patriots WWAST Lady Warriors
-Manager Head coach
James A Garfield Garrettsville
-Manager Head coach

"Effort takes no talent. It’s just a decision that you make.”

https://www.facebook.com/WWASTLadyWarriors/

coachtomv, Saturday at 8:40 AMReport

Reply

BretMan2TSZ/OFC Umpire in Chief

No, you are not crazy! Sad that umpires at that level don’t understand this basic rule. I would make it a point to follow up with their assigner or supervisor. Maybe they will be provided some extra training and you won’t have to deal with this another time!

BretMan2, Saturday at 4:02 PMReport

Reply

coachtomvActive Member

Just to follow up. I sent all the details to the Umpires UIC for both incidents above.

We had one more incident, that I just laughed and continued the game. An ump at Firestone this past weekend, when I was having my Flex go in on offense for my DP, tell me that they are "interchangeable" and I did not need to report it as a sub.""

 

[larson]

1) The DP can never be on DEFENSE ONLY. 2) The FLEX player can never be on OFFENSE ONLY. 3) The DP and FLEX player can never be on offense at the same time. 4) The STARTER and the SUBSTITUTE cannot be in the game at the same time. 5) The starting DP and FLEX player have one re‐entry just as any other player. 6) Once the game is started with the DP/FLEX positions in the lineup, those positions are available for the entire game. 7) The penalty for illegal re‐entry of the DP or FLEX player is always restriction to the bench/dugout. 8) If the player is on offense, she is called out. If the player is on defense, the team on offense may have the choice of taking the result of the play or accepting the penalty.

 

[penguinswin]

Tom, I think because your use of the DP/Flex is “unconventional” for lack of better phrasing, it looks like you just confused everyone else! LOL!

You are completely correct (as is BretMan) on the uses of the DP/Flex, but most coaches keep it simpler and apply the DP like the DH in baseball (just bats) and the flex just plays defense, period. And they don’t change many positions around while using it.

Keep up the good work of keeping them on their toes!

 

[DanMaz]

thats the exact reason most dont even try to use it. bat 9 use subs is a lot easier for everyone. lol I asked an old time coach how he does his line ups because i had a dp flex question i was trying to shinangle something... but i couldnt figure it out and he couldnt either... lol why is it so confusing?? Especially in the heat of a game it aint worht it especially if the umps cant figure it out half the time either! lol bat 9 use subs.

 

[CARDS]

At the HS level it is a great tool to have. I used the DP/FLEX in HS all the time.

Honestly about half the opposing coaches, score keepers and umpires had no idea what it was or how it was used.
Many discussions as a result.

 

[Passion4theGame]

DP/FLEX is a very powerful tool to use. So much you can do with it if you understand the rule. Personally after umpiring for a few years it helped me out with understanding everything you can do with DP/FLEX.

Keep using it and getting a better understanding of what all you can do with DP/Flex Tom. You are a great coach that I have admired and watched from a far. Keep getting better for these athletes.

 

[DanMaz]

I definitely use it but for some reason when I read the rules and try to really understand it, about half way thru i don't understand it anymore. So I use it sparingly. lol

 

[penguinswin]

I think it acts like a lot of rules; there are some situations (teams or times) that it works really well, but for other situations it can be neutral (no benefit) or detrimental (i.e. coaches/umpires that don’t know what they are doing or coaches use it improperly). At the end of the day, the coach has to do what is best for his/her team with the talent they have at their disposal.

 

[daboss]

My opinion; Bottom line you don't "need" it all the time but it is a tool. It helps get more girls actively involved from your roster. All coaches want the best results for the win column. You simply have to decide what works for you. Some have mentioned how confusing it can be and that they don't understand it in its entirety. I get that. Just like a tool if you don't know how to use it you could hurt yourself or someone else so always best to leave it alone till you know how.

Personally, I would suggest working with it in non-league play. Script the "how to's" and discuss those options with umpires before each game. Get the extra kids in the game and see how it can be a benefit later in the season. At least under this scenario if it blows up in your face you don't jeopardize your league record. Just a thought...........

One more thing to toy with is run a mock book (2nd book) and have a 2nd scorekeeper and just see after the game what might have transpired if you were using all the tools compared to your primary book. Might be interesting to see if afterwards you think the outcome would be different by slipping in the hindsight into slots comparing the two.

Don't get me wrong, simpler can be better but growing as a coach and experiencing strategies available to you can only benefit everyone. In this case, it could help give some of the roster players some self-worth. It's a team effort........

 

[DanMaz]

You can only do so much and seems like hands are tied especially when umps aren't familiar with the rules either... then what? Not worth it trying to explain argue negotiate your position when you know more than the umps. Lol that's not fun.

 

[coachjwb]

I'm a little surprised to hear that some high school coaches and umpires are still confused by the rule. When I coached high school ball from '05-'08, it was newer and I understood why there was confusion, but 15 years later still??? As Jeff Hill notes above, it is a powerful tool for coaches. It allows them to get a good defensive player who is not such a good hitter into the game and, if they're also fast, to allow them to pinch-run for the DP a couple of times during the game. Additionally, it gives a coach the opportunity to shuffle some players around, and actually get more players into the game. I had multiple discussions with the umpires and the opposing coaches during our games and won every argument about it because I knew the rule. The only one I didn't win was when the varsity had an off day, and I stayed to watch the JV team play. Our JV coach, who also understood the rule, tried to have the Flex bat for the DP once, and the umpire wouldn't let him. I was sitting behind the backstop and got involved in the discussion, but the umpire wasn't hearing it and I eventually chose to give up rather than make a scene. Meanwhile, our JV coach was left with a very unhappy Flex who was told she was going to hit and wasn't allowed to.

 

[Passion4theGame]

For those that don’t understand the POWER of DP/FLEX rule study this....



Designated Player (DP) / Flexible Player (Flex) Rule Explained

What is a Designated Player (DP) and a Flexible Player (Flex)?

Basically the DP is a player designated to BAT ONLY for one of the 9 starting defensive players, but with some additional defensive options. Prior to the start of the game you must choose which defensive player you want the DP to bat for.

This player becomes the FLEX and plays DEFENSE ONLY, but with some additional offensive options.
In the past the DP was called a DH (Designated Hitter) and could ONLY BAT. NO defensive options.
The DP gets listed in any one of the nine batting spots on the starting line up card. The FLEX player, for whom the DP is batting for, ALWAYS is listed as the 10th player on the bottom of the starting line up card.

The intent of the new rule is to allow the DH type player to play some defense too and thus get more playing time.

The following is a breakdown of the new rule:
1) A DP does not have to be used. You can play the game with 9 starting players on the line up card. This must be declared on the line up card presented to the home plate official prior to the start of the game. You cannot switch and go to a DP later in the game.

2) A team using the DP starts the game with 10 Players on the line up. The DP is to be listed as one of the top 9 players with the 10th player ALWAYS being called the Flex, and must be listed in the 10th spot on the line up card.

3) The DP can just play offense (“BAT” and sit on the bench), or now they can play defense, at any time, for any of the other top 9 players listed on the line up card without penalty of having left the game for either player. The DP does not have to report to the home plate official that he/she is playing defense for any of the top 9 players on the line up card.

4) Example: Should the DP decide to play defense one inning for the left fielder, then the left fielder sits on the bench, but continues to bat in his/her normal listed spot on the line up card, along with the DP batting in his/her normal listed spot on the line up card. Whenever the DP is playing defense, the player being played for is considered to still be in the game, but “temporarily” on the bench and still has to bat in his/her normal spot.

5) The player listed in the 10th position on the line up card is called the “Flex” Player, and plays DEFENSE ONLY. The DP and the Flex can be playing defense at the same time; it is just that the Flex does not bat. The DP could be playing defense for any of the other top 9 players listed on the line up card as mentioned above.

6) You can substitute for the DP and/or Flex using the standard substitute and reentry rule with any player on the bench who has officially not been in the game yet. The DP and Flex would then also be subject to the standard reentry rule.

Designated Player (DP) / Flexible Player (Flex) Rule Explained

Here’s where it can get tricky if you are not careful with your line up card management and knowledge of the substitute and reentry rule.....

7) You can bring the FLEX player into the game to BAT or RUN for the DP if you like. This is the ONLY player and spot in the line up card you can allow the FLEX to BAT or RUN for. Your line up card now goes from 10 “official” players down to 9 players. You can legally end the game with 9 players with this scenario.

8) When you bring the FLEX into BAT or RUN for the DP, the DP has now “officially” left the game and is subject to the standard reentry rule. BUT the FLEX is not, because she is “officially” still in the game. She can also go back to her DEFENSIVE only spot later in the game, and you can bring the starting DP, or a substitute, back into the original DP batting spot. Your line card goes back to 10 “official” players in the game. When you bring the “starting” DP back into the game, she has now reentered once, and if removed again, will be out of the game. If you choose to substitute for the DP and bring her into the game in the DP spot on the line up card, she is now entered the game for the first time and is subject to the standard substitute reentry rule from there.

9) If you choose to bring the DP into the game to play DEFENSE for the FLEX, the FLEX player has now “officially” left the game and you down to 9 official players in the game. The game would continue and run as if it were a standard 9 player roster. The DP would still continue to bat in her starting line up spot.

10) A SUBSTITUTE can enter the game for either the DP or the FLEX Player. The SUBSTITUTE can enter on defense, or as a PINCH HITTER or PINCH RUNNER.

REMINDERS:
1) The DP can never be on DEFENSE ONLY.
2) The FLEX PLAYER can never be on OFFENSE ONLY.
3) The DP and FLEX PLAYER can never be on offense at the same time.
4) The DP and the FLEX can play defense at the same time.
5) The STARTER and the SUBSTITUTE can not be in the game at the same time.
6) The STARTING DP and FLEX PLAYER each have one reentry just as any other starting player.



Hope this help Tom, Dan, and others not utilizing DP/FLEX.

personally I have a PDF saved on my phone of this rule and I will share in this thread for you all to save. Very useful if you have an imposing coach or umpire that does not know the rule and how it works.

 

[coachtomv]

For those that don’t understand the POWER of DP/FLEX rule study this....

I have made it a point to learn this rule inside and out. It 100% gives you an advantage, also roster flexibility. I have a player that plays outfield and is very fast but struggles to hit currently, so we "Flex" her most every game and use "DP" to get a better hitter in. I will have her run for the DP when possible and also hit an at bat a game, using the sub rules for those positions. If I did not do that, I'd have to juggle the sub rules to try and get them both in, but this way they are both in all game.

Also, I also use standard sub rules for all my subs. Its very rare that we do not use our entire roster in every game, we make a point to do this for player development and mental preparedness. This has paid off this season, with sub players making huge plays to win games this year already.

I think umps hate to see us coming, I am talking to them frequently, lol. Not to mention their UIC when they don't know the rules. I make it a point to report it to make sure we are all staying educated. Lord knows I am still learning every game.

 

[DanMaz]

For those that don’t understand the POWER of DP/FLEX rule study this....



Designated Player (DP) / Flexible Player (Flex) Rule Explained

What is a Designated Player (DP) and a Flexible Player (Flex)?

Basically the DP is a player designated to BAT ONLY for one of the 9 starting defensive players, but with some additional defensive options. Prior to the start of the game you must choose which defensive player you want the DP to bat for.

This player becomes the FLEX and plays DEFENSE ONLY, but with some additional offensive options.
In the past the DP was called a DH (Designated Hitter) and could ONLY BAT. NO defensive options.
The DP gets listed in any one of the nine batting spots on the starting line up card. The FLEX player, for whom the DP is batting for, ALWAYS is listed as the 10th player on the bottom of the starting line up card.

The intent of the new rule is to allow the DH type player to play some defense too and thus get more playing time.

The following is a breakdown of the new rule:
1) A DP does not have to be used. You can play the game with 9 starting players on the line up card. This must be declared on the line up card presented to the home plate official prior to the start of the game. You cannot switch and go to a DP later in the game.

2) A team using the DP starts the game with 10 Players on the line up. The DP is to be listed as one of the top 9 players with the 10th player ALWAYS being called the Flex, and must be listed in the 10th spot on the line up card.

3) The DP can just play offense (“BAT” and sit on the bench), or now they can play defense, at any time, for any of the other top 9 players listed on the line up card without penalty of having left the game for either player. The DP does not have to report to the home plate official that he/she is playing defense for any of the top 9 players on the line up card.

4) Example: Should the DP decide to play defense one inning for the left fielder, then the left fielder sits on the bench, but continues to bat in his/her normal listed spot on the line up card, along with the DP batting in his/her normal listed spot on the line up card. Whenever the DP is playing defense, the player being played for is considered to still be in the game, but “temporarily” on the bench and still has to bat in his/her normal spot.

5) The player listed in the 10th position on the line up card is called the “Flex” Player, and plays DEFENSE ONLY. The DP and the Flex can be playing defense at the same time; it is just that the Flex does not bat. The DP could be playing defense for any of the other top 9 players listed on the line up card as mentioned above.

6) You can substitute for the DP and/or Flex using the standard substitute and reentry rule with any player on the bench who has officially not been in the game yet. The DP and Flex would then also be subject to the standard reentry rule.

Designated Player (DP) / Flexible Player (Flex) Rule Explained

Here’s where it can get tricky if you are not careful with your line up card management and knowledge of the substitute and reentry rule.....

7) You can bring the FLEX player into the game to BAT or RUN for the DP if you like. This is the ONLY player and spot in the line up card you can allow the FLEX to BAT or RUN for. Your line up card now goes from 10 “official” players down to 9 players. You can legally end the game with 9 players with this scenario.

8) When you bring the FLEX into BAT or RUN for the DP, the DP has now “officially” left the game and is subject to the standard reentry rule. BUT the FLEX is not, because she is “officially” still in the game. She can also go back to her DEFENSIVE only spot later in the game, and you can bring the starting DP, or a substitute, back into the original DP batting spot. Your line card goes back to 10 “official” players in the game. When you bring the “starting” DP back into the game, she has now reentered once, and if removed again, will be out of the game. If you choose to substitute for the DP and bring her into the game in the DP spot on the line up card, she is now entered the game for the first time and is subject to the standard substitute reentry rule from there.

9) If you choose to bring the DP into the game to play DEFENSE for the FLEX, the FLEX player has now “officially” left the game and you down to 9 official players in the game. The game would continue and run as if it were a standard 9 player roster. The DP would still continue to bat in her starting line up spot.

10) A SUBSTITUTE can enter the game for either the DP or the FLEX Player. The SUBSTITUTE can enter on defense, or as a PINCH HITTER or PINCH RUNNER.

REMINDERS:
1) The DP can never be on DEFENSE ONLY.
2) The FLEX PLAYER can never be on OFFENSE ONLY.
3) The DP and FLEX PLAYER can never be on offense at the same time.
4) The DP and the FLEX can play defense at the same time.
5) The STARTER and the SUBSTITUTE can not be in the game at the same time.
6) The STARTING DP and FLEX PLAYER each have one reentry just as any other starting player.



Hope this help Tom, Dan, and others not utilizing DP/FLEX.

personally I have a PDF saved on my phone of this rule and I will share in this thread for you all to save. Very useful if you have an imposing coach or umpire that does not know the rule and how it works.

I do use dp flex a lot but I stay away from the confusing 2nd part of your post. But I am gonna learn it. Gonna print this and study it every night until I memorize it!!! And bring it to games for back up!!!! Lol Thank you sir!

 

[Captain_Thunder]

Jeff, I think the confusion in the OP original lineup card that he was discussing was that he listed a Flex, that he wasn't starting, but wanted to be able to enter later in the game.
According to your rule #9 - once the Flex leaves the game - the lineup remains at 9 for the rest of the game.
I don't believe that is correct (but curious to hear for sure), as I thought the DP could play defense for her and then her do the one reentry. But if it is true - then the Umpire was correct. Because as soon as the Flex isn't on the field (which in that case, would be the first pitch), she would be done. If listed. I figured she would be able to reenter once, just like if she was put in the field for first pitch and then replaced. Curious to hear Brett's official wording on this???

 

[BretMan2]

Yes, if the FLEX player leaves the game she has one re-entry, just like any other player who left the game. Your line-up can can from 10 players to 9 players and then back to 10 any number of times during the game.

I think that #9 above is just covering the first half of that, stating that if the FLEX leaves the game you go to 9 players. That will continue, like it says...UNLESS you bring the FLEX back in, which you may do.

 

[DanMaz]

I wish Bretman was on our coaching staff!!!! Lol.

 

[CARDS]

Lots of good discussion around this topic.
I coached a HS team that was not in a league. We played Cincy and Dayton public schools that honestly struggled to get coaches let alone coaches that knew the rules of the game. The same with umpires.
A lot of the umpires we had were baseball umpires that would not even enforce facemask on batting helments. So when I used the DP/FLX (as I did every game) they had no idea what it was how it helped the team or advantages it gave our team. I even had score keepers tell me number 10 did not bat...

BretMan will hate to hear this; but a lot of these coaches and umpires struggled with the re-entry rules, batters box (for slappers) the catchers box and pitching lanes that are not called in most contest outside of the top divisions /teams.

Check out these links. It will help a lot of coaches..

https://www.nfhs.org/media/881553/dp-flex-strategies.pdf..Good breakdown

Do not be lazy....Click on the PPT and go through every slide...Great DP/FLX Power Point...
https://www.nfhs.org/activities-sports/softball/

 

[BretMan2]

Honestly, I miss coaching!

The DP/FLEX rule has a lot of ins and outs and twists and turns. The rule takes up an entire page in the rule book! But once you get the basics down, it all starts to make sense.

The way I learned it: First, get a rule book (or online rule book app).

Start reading the first line of the rule. Stop. Repeat it if you have to but DO NOT go to the next line until you are sure that you understand what the line you just read is telling you.

Once you understand what you’ve just read, go to the next line. Again, let the next line sink it, make sure that you comprehend what it’s telling you. Then go to the next line.

Repeat the process, line by line, step by step. By the time you’re finished you should have a good grasp on the rule.

When you try to just read the whole thing straight through it all kind of just runs together...”The DP batting for the FLEX can substitute for the defensive player playing defense but running for the offense blah blah blah...”.

Another thing to keep in mind as you read through is sometimes the rule is referring to the PLAYER in the DP or FLEX role and sometimes it’s referring to the POSITION of DP or FLEX. But if you’re going through line by line, not moving on until you grasp each line, that may become obvious.

Good luck!

 

[TheSoftballZone]

We added it to the resources file

https://www.thesoftballzone.com/community/index.php?resources/dp-flex-game-strategy.11/