DP/FLEX issues repeatedly with High School umpires this season

coachtomv

Active Member
Joined
Jun 17, 2014
Messages
603
Reaction score
137
Points
43
Location
Garrettsville, ohio
Website
www.facebook.com
I have decided that when I show my initial lineup card, I'll just try and have the Flex in a defensive position and the DP only batting. Then just do whatever I need to after that.

That is only an issue if my DP is the starting Pitcher/Catcher, in which case I'll have to be ready for a "conversation" again, lol. Or, still leave it on the card and just let the DP come in wherever, per the rule.

I need to have the rule book ready and bookmarked from now on though.
 

jabber0724

New Member
Joined
May 29, 2018
Messages
2
Reaction score
1
Points
1
I'd like to offer a nuanced view of your original post, given I agree your use of the DP/Flex is "unconventional".

Given your original lineup card submitted to the umpire at the pre-game conference:
1 Seaman (SS)
2 Hahn (CF)
3 Sommers (3rd)
4 Bourne (1st)
5 Fresch (LF)
6 E. Moore (P) - DP (batting)
7 M. McGranahan (RF)
8 C. McGranahan (C)
9 Brann (2nd)
10 A. Moore - Flex (not batting)

I would say the lineup card is not incorrect and not valid given the Flex player plays defense only and the line up card does not indicate the Flex has a defensive position. I can understand your argument that the DP is allowed to play defense for the Flex, but a single pitch has not been thrown (i.e the game has not yet started). How can the Flex leave a game that hasn't started?

I would think a solution to the problem is the following lineup submitted at the pre-game conference:
1 Seaman (SS)
2 Hahn (CF)
3 Sommers (3rd)
4 Bourne (1st)
5 Fresch (LF)
6 E. Moore - DP (batting)
7 M. McGranahan (RF)
8 C. McGranahan (C)
9 Brann (2nd)
10 A. Moore - (P) Flex (not batting)

The Flex (or any starting defensive player) could throw the first pitch and start the game. After that first pitch you could then do as you suggest and sub the DP for the Flex at (P). The Flex would then leave the game and be subject to the standard re-entry rule.

Like I said, I know this is nuanced, but I believe that a player cannot leave a game they never entered.
 

coachtomv

Active Member
Joined
Jun 17, 2014
Messages
603
Reaction score
137
Points
43
Location
Garrettsville, ohio
Website
www.facebook.com
I'd like to offer a nuanced view of your original post, given I agree your use of the DP/Flex is "unconventional".

Given your original lineup card submitted to the umpire at the pre-game conference:
1 Seaman (SS)
2 Hahn (CF)
3 Sommers (3rd)
4 Bourne (1st)
5 Fresch (LF)
6 E. Moore (P) - DP (batting)
7 M. McGranahan (RF)
8 C. McGranahan (C)
9 Brann (2nd)
10 A. Moore - Flex (not batting)

I would say the lineup card is not incorrect and not valid given the Flex player plays defense only and the line up card does not indicate the Flex has a defensive position. I can understand your argument that the DP is allowed to play defense for the Flex, but a single pitch has not been thrown (i.e the game has not yet started). How can the Flex leave a game that hasn't started?

I would think a solution to the problem is the following lineup submitted at the pre-game conference:
1 Seaman (SS)
2 Hahn (CF)
3 Sommers (3rd)
4 Bourne (1st)
5 Fresch (LF)
6 E. Moore - DP (batting)
7 M. McGranahan (RF)
8 C. McGranahan (C)
9 Brann (2nd)
10 A. Moore - (P) Flex (not batting)

The Flex (or any starting defensive player) could throw the first pitch and start the game. After that first pitch you could then do as you suggest and sub the DP for the Flex at (P). The Flex would then leave the game and be subject to the standard re-entry rule.

Like I said, I know this is nuanced, but I believe that a player cannot leave a game they never entered.


Yep, that's why I am going to do it like I had mentioned above. DP batting and other 9 including flex having a position on the card, then once the game starts I can do anything I want to after that. Less confusing.
 

BretMan2

TSZ/OFC Umpire in Chief
Joined
Jun 19, 2014
Messages
546
Reaction score
196
Points
43
“A player cannot leave a game they never entered”.

That’s not how the DP/FLEX rule works. At the pre-game plate conference, when the lineup is given to the umpire and accepted as “official”, all players on that lineup are considered to be in the game. At that point- before any pitches are ever thrown- a coach can make any switch or change and it’s treated as any other change made during the game.
 

tjsmize3

Active Member
Joined
Jun 17, 2014
Messages
397
Reaction score
78
Points
28
Jabber is right in most of what he says with the exception of the "first pitch" part and the "never entered the game part." This is just confusion with the timing of the move.
Tom, with the way you have your line up written in the above example, it would have been handed back to us in MOST of our travel games (I say most because there were always some rare instances where umps occasionally did not fully understand the rule either, or just didn't care). If the flex is not playing defense in your scenario, then that is a "substitution," (i.e. DP is playing defense for the flex). This takes the game to 9 players. Therefore, as jabber mentioned, your lineup card should have reflected a defensive position for the flex. Then, AFTER the coin flip, the ump will ask if there are any changes to made to the line up. At that point you say, "yes, I want the DP to play defense in the game for the flex," and you are now at 9 players with your flex having only one re-entry.
While some have said this is "unconventional" we often used this tactic, and one of the Bandits teams we frequently faced (Tyrrell) did it EVERY game we played against her regardless. Remember, the rule states you cannot go to 10 starters (i.e. use flex/DP) once the game has started. Therefore, if you list a flex to start and "sub in" the DP on defense (for the flex) after the coin flip you are essentially starting the game with 9 as you normally would and allowing the possibility that you MAY go to 10 players IF YOU CHOOSE at a later point in the game by bringing in the flex. Many people who have to manage large rosters will use this move, especially in some of the elite circuits because it gives you more flexibility with your substitutions. Let's say you have a pitcher that is a complete stud and you need her to shut down the other team so you can get an early lead and then save her arm. However, at NO POINT in the game do you want to lose her bat. With the DP flex rule, you could bring in another pitcher (who you listed as flex) to throw in the later innings, while still keeping the stud in the lineup to hit, or even hit and play SS if you need... your choice. You also could just bring in another straight sub for her (while still keeping the option of bring in a flex open) if you choose. Again, because of the flexibility it gives you, if you really know ahead of time how you want to use the talents of EACH player on your team to maximize your chances of winning and getting more people in to play (in one capacity or another) it makes sense to use a DP/Flex. It was always amazing to me though how some teams would look at you cross-eyed when you subbed out the flex after the coin flip?!
 
Last edited:

tjsmize3

Active Member
Joined
Jun 17, 2014
Messages
397
Reaction score
78
Points
28
I have decided that when I show my initial lineup card, I'll just try and have the Flex in a defensive position and the DP only batting. Then just do whatever I need to after that.

That is only an issue if my DP is the starting Pitcher/Catcher, in which case I'll have to be ready for a "conversation" again, lol. Or, still leave it on the card and just let the DP come in wherever, per the rule.

I need to have the rule book ready and bookmarked from now on though.
 

tjsmize3

Active Member
Joined
Jun 17, 2014
Messages
397
Reaction score
78
Points
28
I have decided that when I show my initial lineup card, I'll just try and have the Flex in a defensive position and the DP only batting. Then just do whatever I need to after that.

That is only an issue if my DP is the starting Pitcher/Catcher, in which case I'll have to be ready for a "conversation" again, lol. Or, still leave it on the card and just let the DP come in wherever, per the rule.

I need to have the rule book ready and bookmarked from now on though.
Tom, it seems like since you already know ahead of time what you want to do, you are lining up your chess pieces to start off the game with your first move already made. As mentioned above if the flex IS NOT starting the game then you should be reporting that after the flip as the DP has to be in for her defensively per the rule and that is a substitution. In the second example though, it may be nice for everyone from a housekeeping standpoint if the DP did not have a defensive position listed on your score card to start the game. I would just tell everyone for clarity that my DP is going to start off defensively, but you do not need to report that. It just makes everyone else have to go through your moves and at first I too would think the player w/o a defensive position was the DP. I don't see this as a rule issue, again just housekeeping where your opponents and the ump may want to see the pieces all lined up at the start before any moving around takes place... JMO
 

BretMan2

TSZ/OFC Umpire in Chief
Joined
Jun 19, 2014
Messages
546
Reaction score
196
Points
43
All good advice, except there’s nothing magic about “after the coin flip” for making this change. The coin flip is irrelevant. Once the lineups are given to the umpire and inspected they become official. A coach can make changes after that point, whether a coin has been flipped or not. Besides that, you don’t usually have a coin flip to start a high school game. Home team is already decided.
 

penguinswin

Member
Joined
Jul 17, 2018
Messages
108
Reaction score
7
Points
18
I am hoping BretMan2 or one of our umps can clarify an issue for me.

In a tournament game where I am using the DP/FLEX, I make a regular substitution Player A enters the game for Player B. The next inning when I go to re-enter Player B, but this time to sub out for my FLEX, the umpire tells me Player A and Player B are tied together now, and if Player B re-enters, then it must be for Player A. My understanding was that so long as Player B does not re-enter on offense (which as the new FLEX she wouldn’t be), there is no issue about her re-entering on defense because she is not effecting the batting order. Please help, just when I thought I had it figured out, I get rebuffed on my first time using it...
 

Captain_Thunder

Super Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Jun 24, 2014
Messages
4,390
Reaction score
335
Points
83
I am hoping BretMan2 or one of our umps can clarify an issue for me.

In a tournament game where I am using the DP/FLEX, I make a regular substitution Player A enters the game for Player B. The next inning when I go to re-enter Player B, but this time to sub out for my FLEX, the umpire tells me Player A and Player B are tied together now, and if Player B re-enters, then it must be for Player A. My understanding was that so long as Player B does not re-enter on offense (which as the new FLEX she wouldn’t be), there is no issue about her re-entering on defense because she is not effecting the batting order. Please help, just when I thought I had it figured out, I get rebuffed on my first time using it...
Umpire was correct.
Player B can only re-enter into the original spot she was in the lineup....
No way can Player A and Player B in the lineup at the same time in your scenario.
 

BretMan2

TSZ/OFC Umpire in Chief
Joined
Jun 19, 2014
Messages
546
Reaction score
196
Points
43
Umpire seems to have been correct. But saying that “player A and player B are tied together” isn’t exactly right. Both player are tied to a particular slot/position in the lineup, not to each other.

Player B can only re-enter in whatever lineup position player A had originally occupied.
 

penguinswin

Member
Joined
Jul 17, 2018
Messages
108
Reaction score
7
Points
18
Umpire seems to have been correct. But saying that “player A and player B are tied together” isn’t exactly right. Both player are tied to a particular slot/position in the lineup, not to each other.

Player B can only re-enter in whatever lineup position player A had originally occupied.


I think I now realize where I went wrong; Since the flex is technically in the 10th spot in the line up, even though not batting, by putting a starter in that spot is considered “moving” the starter from her original spot in the batting order to another, which is where the issue arises.

If I am still off base, please let me know.

Thanks!
 
Top