ASA Rule on selecting a Champion when Tournament can not be finished

[Psjdeuces]

[h=2][/h]

My DD team has dealt with this the in the past and it always seems that even in official ASA qualifying tournaments there is never a clear direction so wondering what the official ruling would be. The situation is this. Team A and Team B make the championship with no losses in pool play or bracket play. They have not played each other. Team A gave up 0 runs in pool pla, is the #1 overall seed in bracket play, and gives up three runs in bracket play. Team B gave up 1 runs in pool play, is the #2 seed in bracket play, and gave up 3 runs in bracket play. Both played a total of 5 games before the championship game. Game is called after two innings with a 0-0 score. Who wins? Thanks.​

 

[coachtomv]

[h=2][/h]

My DD team has dealt with this the in the past and it always seems that even in official ASA qualifying tournaments there is never a clear direction so wondering what the official ruling would be. The situation is this. Team A and Team B make the championship with no losses in pool play or bracket play. They have not played each other. Team A gave up 0 runs in pool pla, is the #1 overall seed in bracket play, and gives up three runs in bracket play. Team B gave up 1 runs in pool play, is the #2 seed in bracket play, and gave up 3 runs in bracket play. Both played a total of 5 games before the championship game. Game is called after two innings with a 0-0 score. Who wins? Thanks.​

Coin flip.

We just had this situation over rain yesterday at Valley Exteme's ASA ENQ.

We were 5-0 and in the championship game when rain washed out the semi's. Coin flipped the semi final game first, then ours. We lost the flip and were an official 2nd place.

 

[27_]

There are very clear rules for an incomplete tournament but nobody seems to care what the actual rules are for confirming a winner. I can't find coin flip as an option. Maybe there is another rule in the book that says coin flip but I don't see it here. From page 43 and 44 of the ASA rule book:

Incomplete Tournament.

In the event a national qualifier, regional,territorial qualifier or national championship final tournament cannot becompleted within the scheduled time frame the following procedures shall beused to break ties among teams in the same spot in the bracket.
a. Head to head competition.
b. The team that advanced the farthest in the winner’s bracket.
c. Won-loss records, except among undefeated teams.
d. If only two teams are tied for a position and have played each other,the winner of that game.

EXCEPTION: If there are only two teams remaining and each teamhas one loss, the championship must be played or the teams shall bedeclared co-champions. In the case of the ASA Eastern / Northern /Southern / Western National Championship Finals, Co-Champions willnot be declared.

If this occurs, the tiebreaker in Article 310 ( I )( 02 ) ( e, f and g ) of this Code followed in order will be used todetermine the team advancing to the USA National ChampionshipSeries.
e. The teams shall be ranked according to the fewest runs allowed pergame played.
f. If a tie still exists, the teams shall be ranked according to the most runsscored per game played.
g. If a tie still exits, by a coin toss.

NOTE: Only bracket play games should be used in determining theofficial order of finish for National Championship Finals, pool playgames should not be used.

 

[Psjdeuces]

It seems like many tournaments use the coin flip, but it seems too simple to me to be the true rule. All that hard work and then you just flip a coin???? There must be more to the rule.

 

[Psjdeuces]

Now this looks official but can anyone else verify that this is correct? I'd love to hear from an official who knows the ASA rules. I've read this before and it seems that if a, b, c and d are all tied, which in this case they would be, the tie breaker should be total runs against for the entire tournament, including pool play, divided by total games played. This was for an ASA qualifier tournament. The note at the end is only for National Championship Finals, not qualifier tournamennts. Does anyone else agree or disagree?

 

[oiler_pride]

The article 310 is directly from the 2015 ASA Code pg 43. That is the rule for handling placement of teams at an ASA Qualifier. The coin toss is the last in criteria. Many other tie breakers in place before you get to the flip.

 

[BCsoftballDad]

2016 ASA Code reads exactly the same. Only difference is that it is found on page 44.

 

[coachtomv]

There are very clear rules for an incomplete tournament but nobody seems to care what the actual rules are for confirming a winner. I can't find coin flip as an option. Maybe there is another rule in the book that says coin flip but I don't see it here. From page 43 and 44 of the ASA rule book:

Incomplete Tournament.

In the event a national qualifier, regional,territorial qualifier or national championship final tournament cannot becompleted within the scheduled time frame the following procedures shall beused to break ties among teams in the same spot in the bracket.
a. Head to head competition.
b. The team that advanced the farthest in the winner’s bracket.
c. Won-loss records, except among undefeated teams.
d. If only two teams are tied for a position and have played each other,the winner of that game.

EXCEPTION: If there are only two teams remaining and each teamhas one loss, the championship must be played or the teams shall bedeclared co-champions. In the case of the ASA Eastern / Northern /Southern / Western National Championship Finals, Co-Champions willnot be declared.

If this occurs, the tiebreaker in Article 310 ( I )( 02 ) ( e, f and g ) of this Code followed in order will be used todetermine the team advancing to the USA National ChampionshipSeries.
e. The teams shall be ranked according to the fewest runs allowed pergame played.
f. If a tie still exists, the teams shall be ranked according to the most runsscored per game played.
g. If a tie still exits, by a coin toss.

NOTE: Only bracket play games should be used in determining theofficial order of finish for National Championship Finals, pool playgames should not be used.

So in our case at Valley Extreme this weekend, different slightly from poster of the thread, we were the only ones to advance to championship game and should have been awarded the Championship and the bid. Obviously we'd rather play it out, but the rules are there for a reason.

Thanks for posting the rules.

 

[daboss]

There are a lot of parents that want a reschedule or something of the same but this is not possible. Tourneys are held to make money. most only have access to fields on that given weekend. Clubs have commitments for other tourneys and leagues once that weekend is over. As hard as it is to swallow, these are the rules for tournament play. Everyone wants to see more. It simply cannot happen. I think we should start a coalition to petition Mother Nature to change her weather patterns to allow the completion of scheduled tourneys. She IS a mother for God's sake. She should know better!!!

Just funnin ya a little in hopes you'll smile. I know the above rules can result in a coin flip and it all seems so menial after a tough weekend. Trust me, TD"s would much rather complete a tourney and play all the games.

 

[coachtomv]

There are a lot of parents that want a reschedule or something of the same but this is not possible. Tourneys are held to make money. most only have access to fields on that given weekend. Clubs have commitments for other tourneys and leagues once that weekend is over. As hard as it is to swallow, these are the rules for tournament play. Everyone wants to see more. It simply cannot happen. I think we should start a coalition to petition Mother Nature to change her weather patterns to allow the completion of scheduled tourneys. She IS a mother for God's sake. She should know better!!!

Just funnin ya a little in hopes you'll smile. I know the above rules can result in a coin flip and it all seems so menial after a tough weekend. Trust me, TD"s would much rather complete a tourney and play all the games.

No doubt about it, lol.

However, with qualifiers the letter of the rules need to be understood and followed. Still not going to make everyone happy of course.

 

[27_]

Daboss the problem still resides with TDs not following the rules. As Tom pointed out we'd all rather finish the tournament on the field but in the event we can't it would be nice to see the rules actually followed to determine a winner not make up rules on the fly. We've had two weeks in a row here in Ohio where champions have been determined any number of ways because championship games have been called. In fact last week in the Firefighters they were determined differently in the same tournament.

My DD has been involved in two of these situations and both times the rules were not followed. The deciding factor was made up by the TD. If the rules aren't going to be followed I'm not sure I understand the reason for the governing bodies existing.

 

[BretMan2]

http://downloads.asasoftball.com/about/pdf/2016asacode_1182016.pdf

Above link is to ASA Code Book. You can see the referenced pages there.

If your tournament is a national qualifier, then this should be followed. If not, then TD's are free to come up with any method they wish.

If it is a qualifier, and the code isn't followed, you should contact your local ASA commissioner for more info.

 

[27_]

That would explain the discrepancies. Thanks Bret. It all seems to make sense now. As much sense as make your own rules up to determine the winner can make

The Valley Extreme tournament was an Eastern National Qualifier.

 

[Psjdeuces]

There are a lot of parents that want a reschedule or something of the same but this is not possible. Tourneys are held to make money. most only have access to fields on that given weekend. Clubs have commitments for other tourneys and leagues once that weekend is over. As hard as it is to swallow, these are the rules for tournament play. Everyone wants to see more. It simply cannot happen. I think we should start a coalition to petition Mother Nature to change her weather patterns to allow the completion of scheduled tourneys. She IS a mother for God's sake. She should know better!!!

Just funnin ya a little in hopes you'll smile. I know the above rules can result in a coin flip and it all seems so menial after a tough weekend. Trust me, TD"s would much rather complete a tourney and play all the games.

I just think the issue seems to be that TD's make up their own rules, even in official events. I don't understand why this rule isn't followed in every ASA tournament. I'm sure USSSA and PGF has similar rules but I've seen higher seeded teams handed the trophies or a coin flip is the first and only option they go to. Really doesn't make sense seeing there is a rule in place for this exact situation.