Bad umpires or teams not playing as well as they should???

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It seems like as the travel ball season is winding down, there are alot of " bad umpire" posts. yesterday at the jags summer tournament I saw three coaching ejections (two were in my dds games on the opposing teams). I'm pretty convinced that most of the anger has to do with teams not meeting expectations and who better to blame than the umpire. Im not an umpire, though i have called a few games and imo 35 bucks is not enough for the harrassment they take. At the end of the day, if you hit better than your opposition, you win. How many times do you see a team thats up by 8 runs arguing a "bad call"? NEVER, is the correct answer.
 
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I think the majority of "bad umpire" arguments are more a result of lack of rule knowledge than just bad judgement calls. I really believe the OFC has played a major role in this. Not a bad role, but it has educated a great number of people on rules via bretman questions, "case studies", etc. Every weekend there are more than a few threads that start out like, "Had this situation this weekend, whats the correct call...." After multiple seasons of these "situations" OFCers are much more educated about rules. I had one aunt this year holler out the correct rule to another coach who was arguing for one of bretman's so called myth rules. We weren't even playing yet:eek:, we were the next game. She would have never known that if the OFC hadn't existed.
 
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The umpiring overall this summer has been very poor. Strike zones are so wide that most girls should use canoe paddles instead of bats. The base umpiring has been ghastly. Most of them are so out of position to make close calls, they're simply guessing. They're bad guessers.
 
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I'm pretty convinced that most of the anger has to do with teams not meeting expectations and who better to blame than the umpire.

Yep, it is that time of the year. Ideally, the team goes through the "Forming, Storming, and Norming" process in that order, but I'm thinking at least 80% of Ohio travel teams go through the process in the order of "Forming, Norming, and Storming", which means coaches, players, and families are looking for scapegoats to storm about at this time of the season. And of course for cold-weather states like Ohio, the height of the hot weather increases the potential for the "Storming".
 
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I have experienced teams we have played against argue calls even though they where up a number of runs. Some coaches will use the occassion to run the clock down. I would not want to be an umpire either but I do think the majority cause their own problems when they are not consistant with their calls. Case in point @ a tourney we where in this past weekend one of our game umpires blew two calls. 1st my team was on offense batter up with runners on 1st and 2nd. Batter hits a hard line shot that bounced in front of the 3rd base bag and over the bag before bouncing on the line in the outfield. Ump calls a foul ball. I made no comment but the parents where upset. Two more pitches later same batter hits the ball down the 3rd base line again but this time does not go over the bag and clearly bounces in foul territory. Ump calls a fair ball. Other teams coach and fans go ballistic since we scored two runs and had another runner on 3rd. Umpire clearly made two incorrect calls. If the first call was correct we would have only scored 1 run on the initial hit since the left fielder fielded the ball and the 2nd hit made it way past the fielder. It seems that every year the umpiring takes a turn for the worse. This year I have had numerous problems with umpires not knowing basic substitution rules. Also asking other coaches we play against seems the strike zone keeps getting smaller and smaller.
 
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The biggest arguments and blow-ups from coaches I've had this year came from them arguing points that had ZERO basis in the actual playing rules.

And they all came from teams that were getting beat...and beat badly.

I'm just saying... :rolleyes:
 
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I am happy with our team this year and the last two tourneys we lost but was in semi finals both times.... battle of the burgh and orrville tourney, we just lost no excuses. But this weekend I gotta tell you y I am mad and call it what you want but making excuses. Here is the set up of game.

We are losing by two runs...the meat of my order is up and I am really confident because they score (usually). #2 batter is on first base, #3 batter gets a hit goes to first; ball is throw from outfield to pitcher; pitcher misses (or bad throw, not judging) the ball; my runners jump on this chance and advance to 2nd and 3rd; okay....now while all this is going on someone (don't know who or why) form 3rd base dugout (opposing team) decides they want to throw the ball(previous foul ball) to umpire while this is going on.....me or my player did not see this...but I did see another ball back there; my runner at third did not know this....so what she sees is a ball 15 feet away from catcher(ball thrown in) and she heads for home; at her angle she did not see another ball or did not see a ball thrown in;unfortunately the catcher gets the "right" ball and the runner is tagged out at home. umpires say the ball remains in play so we get shafted on that one. One of our parents overheard the umps talk and the one said if he would have know that he would have called dead ball. So know I have two outs with one runner at third...needless to say the batter gets a hit and only one score because there is only one on base. Its never happened to me before and I hope it never happens again...but I was pretty mad and really never lose my temper like that. Sure if I had more runs I wouldn't face that problem...but what a scenario...one game before semis. That stinks.....I sort of blame umpires...but what are you gonna do. Good news is that I woke up today and life goes on.
 
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I'm sure you were mad about this one- can't really say that I blame you.

But...

Somebody in the opposite dugout did something stupid (throw a ball in during a live play) and the umpire didn't see it (why would the umpire be watching the dugout during a live play?).

What would you expect the umpires to do in this situation?
 
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I'm sure you were mad about this one- can't really say that I blame you.

But...

Somebody in the opposite dugout did something stupid (throw a ball in during a live play) and the umpire didn't see it (why would the umpire be watching the dugout during a live play?).

What would you expect the umpires to do in this situation?

That's what I mean; I just don't know....and you are right the umps are not watching the dugout, but one did mention that a kid in the dugout threw it out??? but this was after the game as I walked out (1/2 hour later). I asked what about dead ball, runners return to bag...Ump said it's a live ball it cannot be stopped. I mean that just stinks :(
 
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Speaking of live ball/dead ball scenarios... have had quite a few umpires this year calling time out to clean the plate, while a live ball is not yet back to the circle, or in the case of a walked batter...she is not yet to first base.

Which pretty much negates any runner advance on either a delayed steal or over/under-thrown ball.

Never complained about it, but did notice it more this year than usual.
 
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would that fall under coaches trying to confuse the defensive team. after all the coaches are responsible for everyone in the dugout and everything in the dugout.
 
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Speaking of live ball/dead ball scenarios... have had quite a few umpires this year calling time out to clean the plate, while a live ball is not yet back to the circle, or in the case of a walked batter...she is not yet to first base.

They shouldn't be doing that. That is just poor game management. You should never call time when there is the possibility of runners still advancing, a ball being overthrown or the defense getting an out.

Maybe, just maybe...these are umpires more familiar with doing slow pitch, where the ball is dead on a walk, runners can't steal and they call dead ball whenever the ball comes back into the infield. I've seen that happen before.
 
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That's what I mean; I just don't know....and you are right the umps are not watching the dugout, but one did mention that a kid in the dugout threw it out??? but this was after the game as I walked out (1/2 hour later). I asked what about dead ball, runners return to bag...Ump said it's a live ball it cannot be stopped. I mean that just stinks :(

I've never had this happen in one of my games before. But if it did, I would like to think that I would handle it like this...

- If the coach is telling me another ball was thrown in that affected the play- and I didn't see it- I would check with my partner to see if he did.

- If my partner saw it, I'm sending the runner back to third.

- Then I'm telling the third base dugout not to do that again!

One time might be an accident. If it happens a second time, I may consider it deliberate and a form of obstruction and award bases.

There is no rule that directly addresses an extra ball being thrown onto the field. Since there is no specific rule, the umpire guidelines allow the plate umpire to make his own ruling on any point not covered by the rule book. If there is any evidence presented to me that the extra ball affected the play, I am not going to allow the offending team to profit from it.

This is all perfectly allowable under the umpire jusisdiction laid out in Rule 10.
 
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If there is any evidence presented to me that the extra ball affected the play, I am not going to allow the offending team to profit from it.

This is all perfectly allowable under the umpire jusisdiction laid out in Rule 10.

so in this case as it came from the defensive team and their profit would be to prevent the run from scoring. So you would do what?
 
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Well, the umpires figuring that out while the play was happening or even immediately afterwards... instead of this " I should have" blah, blah, blah. .. after the game was over... would have been nice.

I would have asked both.. did you see an extra ball on the field during the play ?

One "yes" and now we got rules to go by ... should be your next thought.

If both said, "No" ... then you have to wonder why at the end of the play.. when pointed out by yourself to one of the umpires the ball laying there in play AS WE SPEAK.... and this is why my runner at third came towards home.... and this situation made an unfair advantage and obviously I would not have sent her to home ... let ALONE the other bench threw the ball in play from their dugout ( which is probally an honest mistake as SOME coaches think the play is over to early sometimes and do that innocently )

And if those umpires after the play is immediately over.. and when pointed out the FACT there is a ball on the field of play... don't rule on common sense and really the rule of the extra ball... because I would ... after being pointed out about the ball being on the field.

And lets say the distance is 8ft from catcher for one ball and 13 feet for the other ball ( assuming the coach's argument is that he was going by this ball for his and his player decision making process of continuing home) ... you have to go within reason as an umpire and making the game "fair". I do know that is true in USSSA

But, truthfully, we have an umpire... when immediately after the play at home ... he is pointed out by the coach of the second ball..... I would say he would have to call "dead ball" and send the runners back to second and third.

Truthfully, if you have an umpire that didn't call dead ball... I would ask for a "protest" and get the UIC to explain the facts and ask for his rules decision.

a) second ball on the field in backstop area
b) not seen by either umpire during the play
c) but seen by plate umpire when I pointed it out to him immediately after the play was over
d) told umpire "I made my decision to send runner home based on the "illegal" ball's distance away from the catcher"

I want to be there for the gesture made by the UIC at this point :eek::lmao:

But, the UIC should ask both umpires if what was said was true and the fact that a second ball was in play and was pointed out by a coach after the conclusion of the play.... and they saw this when pointed out...

One yes.. and it should be called dead ball based on a second ball on the field of play.

Question is: Did the coach CALMLY approach the umpire with his argument. Real big point is did the coach point out the ball immediately to the umpire like " Hey, this ball is on the field" and make the umpire look and see it IMMEDIATELY at the conclusion of the play

To me, here is the argument.. was it pointed out by the coach to the plate umpire and seen immediately after the play concluded.

I mean, as an umpire you are watching the play and may not have seen the ball rolled towards the backstop . Hopefully you didn't see it as a plate umpire. Last thing in the world I am looking at really.. but if when told withing seconds of a second ball on the field during the time of play and the umpire admits he turned and saw the second ball...

I would have to say the UIC would have to call dead ball and send the runners back :)

It's all in the presentation coaches.. and personally if the field umpire was doing his job and in the vicinity of third base following the runner... if that ball was obviously within sight of base umpire.. I would have tried to get his attention and point it out to him with his visual sight on the ball immediately after the play.... and hopefully it soooo great of a view of the second ball for the ump on the field .. that he walks towards the plate umpire to inform him of the extra ball on the field he saw and while walking.. me as the coach saying I based my girl going home, blah, blah" CALMLY two steps behind him all the way to the plate ;&.. you done your job as a third base coach.

Say nothing, if your girls scores :lmao: :lmao: ;&
 
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To add my two cents. I have had many discussions with the people wearing blue. Mine MOST of the time start with time please blue. Can you please tell me what you saw and what criteria did you use to come to your call? I hardly ever tell them what they saw or what happened. That leads no where. After I get my answer I decide if I can ask for an appeal. 95% of the time I can at least get the 2 umpires to discuss the call. At the end if I feel they were still wrong but nothing I can do to change the outcome. I tell my team 9 can beat 11. The umpire doesn't decide who wins you do. I have had a lot of umpires thank me for handling it that way. Now remember I said most of the time. Some times I am not so controlled as you all know happens to the best of us.

In other words good teams with good game managers "could be a coach or the manager" can over come bad calls when they happen. Umpires are human just like coaches. And we all get the first or third out at home sometimes.

Just my two cents.
Thank you for your time...
 
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It's like Bretman says.. when it is pointed out to you at the conclusion.. then rule properly.

But, in your case.. you had two umpires that didn't rule.

I was just giving you a formula to go by ... if even after being informed and their visual sighting of that "second" ball neither umpire ruled dead ball .... It's a trip to the UIC by my assistant and I am staying around the plate umpire as my assistant is getting the UIC or TD and get this rule correct and fair
 
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so in this case as it came from the defensive team and their profit would be to prevent the run from scoring. So you would do what?

They profited by getting an out on the runner who advanced when she saw the "wrong" ball rolling around away from the catcher. I would negate that out and place the runner safely back on third.

If the catcher was able to get the "real' ball and tag the runner out...then the runner obviously had no chance of scoring anyway. So I don't really see a run as being prevented. But if that extra ball wasn't out there...would the runner have even tried to advance anyway?

The defensive side screwed up by throwing in the ball. I'm giving the offense every benefit of the doubt and putting her back on third. That would be the most likely outcome had the ball not been thrown out in the first place.
 
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I have experienced teams we have played against argue calls even though they where up a number of runs. Some coaches will use the occassion to run the clock down. I would not want to be an umpire either but I do think the majority cause their own problems when they are not consistant with their calls. Case in point @ a tourney we where in this past weekend one of our game umpires blew two calls. 1st my team was on offense batter up with runners on 1st and 2nd. Batter hits a hard line shot that bounced in front of the 3rd base bag and over the bag before bouncing on the line in the outfield. Ump calls a foul ball. I made no comment but the parents where upset. Two more pitches later same batter hits the ball down the 3rd base line again but this time does not go over the bag and clearly bounces in foul territory. Ump calls a fair ball. Other teams coach and fans go ballistic since we scored two runs and had another runner on 3rd. Umpire clearly made two incorrect calls. If the first call was correct we would have only scored 1 run on the initial hit since the left fielder fielded the ball and the 2nd hit made it way past the fielder. It seems that every year the umpiring takes a turn for the worse. This year I have had numerous problems with umpires not knowing basic substitution rules. Also asking other coaches we play against seems the strike zone keeps getting smaller and smaller.

Yeah, but you get bad calls against you because you are ugly. I always get the good calls, especially from the female umps!!
 
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