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Thanks softballump for all your help.
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What would constitute
"the runner altering her path as a result of that blocking." ?
What do I tell my girls to do if a defensive player blocks the bag like described in the above post? The first thing they do is stop. I was told by an umpire to tell them to run out of the baseline and then I would have the proof to appeal if obstruction is not called.
"the runner altering her path as a result of that blocking." ?
What do I tell my girls to do if a defensive player blocks the bag like described in the above post? The first thing they do is stop. I was told by an umpire to tell them to run out of the baseline and then I would have the proof to appeal if obstruction is not called.
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RobeyWarren,
The play you describe at second sounds like definite obstruction.
If the fielder doesn't have the ball, the runner has TOTAL right to the base.
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Softballump,
Please don't think that I'm picking on you or trying to say that you don't know your stuff. You have offered quite a few other rule opinions on this board and I generally agree with all of them- except for one! ;D
A fielder without the ball needs to give access to the entire bag, not half of it, or most of it, or some portion of it that the runner might be able to reach if she does a slide-by, or- and this one relates to straddling- a portion that deprives the runner of her legal right to go into the base standing up.
If a fielder straddles a base without the ball, they might be giving the runner access to some portion of the bag. But the rule interpretation is that the runner needs to be give FULL access to any portion of the base she chooses, and FULL access to take ANY path she chooses to reach that base.
That's my story and I'm sticking to it!
The play you describe at second sounds like definite obstruction.
If the fielder doesn't have the ball, the runner has TOTAL right to the base.
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Softballump,
Please don't think that I'm picking on you or trying to say that you don't know your stuff. You have offered quite a few other rule opinions on this board and I generally agree with all of them- except for one! ;D
A fielder without the ball needs to give access to the entire bag, not half of it, or most of it, or some portion of it that the runner might be able to reach if she does a slide-by, or- and this one relates to straddling- a portion that deprives the runner of her legal right to go into the base standing up.
If a fielder straddles a base without the ball, they might be giving the runner access to some portion of the bag. But the rule interpretation is that the runner needs to be give FULL access to any portion of the base she chooses, and FULL access to take ANY path she chooses to reach that base.
That's my story and I'm sticking to it!
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Bretman,
What you say makes common sense as well as softball sense. Otherwise, imagine the scenario with the bases loaded dinger. The catcher could "legally" straddle home plate and make each of the four runners all go down and slide (risking injury and absurdity) thru he straddled legs even as the OF is still out by the fence trying to find the ball in the dandelions. It certainly makes sense that the runner should be entitled to an unencumbered pass thru the base, if there is no play being made. Doing that at ALL of the bases would certainly be "ONE WAY" to slow down runners on the bases after a nice hit.
What you say makes common sense as well as softball sense. Otherwise, imagine the scenario with the bases loaded dinger. The catcher could "legally" straddle home plate and make each of the four runners all go down and slide (risking injury and absurdity) thru he straddled legs even as the OF is still out by the fence trying to find the ball in the dandelions. It certainly makes sense that the runner should be entitled to an unencumbered pass thru the base, if there is no play being made. Doing that at ALL of the bases would certainly be "ONE WAY" to slow down runners on the bases after a nice hit.
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my question is blocking 3rd base about 3 feet towards 2nd...not only did she block the base before the ball get to her she also blocks 3 foot in front of base after she has the ball...is that giving the runner any shot at getting to the base????
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We can argue this allday. I have seen plays where the catcher was blocking the plate without the ball and plays where runners are crashing. The ultimate goal is in hopes that the umpires will see the play and make the right call according to the rules.
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ricb21,
Blocking third (or any base) WITHOUT the ball can lead to an obstruction call, if the blocking causes the runner to alter her path to the base.
"Altering her path" would include being bumped by the fielder, having to slow down to avoid contact, going around the fielder, or being forced to slide when a slide wasn't really necessary.
Blocking the base WITH the ball is 100% legal. If a fielder has possession of the ball she can stand anywhere she wants to.
Blocking third (or any base) WITHOUT the ball can lead to an obstruction call, if the blocking causes the runner to alter her path to the base.
"Altering her path" would include being bumped by the fielder, having to slow down to avoid contact, going around the fielder, or being forced to slide when a slide wasn't really necessary.
Blocking the base WITH the ball is 100% legal. If a fielder has possession of the ball she can stand anywhere she wants to.
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Ump,
Wish the Central Ohio UIC was at the Stingrays last week. We had a pick-off at first with the defensive player straddling the bag and a clear path open to the runner and still got called for obstruction. Runner was a deer in the headlights and hardly even moved before she was tagged. Just one more of the mystery calls that seem to pop up now and again, and again, and again.
Wish the Central Ohio UIC was at the Stingrays last week. We had a pick-off at first with the defensive player straddling the bag and a clear path open to the runner and still got called for obstruction. Runner was a deer in the headlights and hardly even moved before she was tagged. Just one more of the mystery calls that seem to pop up now and again, and again, and again.
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Henri27,
Yes, we see plays like this all the time. We see fielders blocking bases and runners crashing into fielders.
We can only hope that the umpires making the call are all judging the same elements of the play based on some common, pre-defined standards. That would go a long way toward getting uniformity in the enforcement of obstruction and interference calls.
We can argue this all day and, in fact, I've heard these same agruments for years!
Let me throw out one more angle on obstruction/interference then I'm off to bed. I just got home from playing a double header on my men's fastpitch team, then went and filled-in for a late game on a friend's slow pitch team. Frankly, I'm about too bushed to type!
With all the rampant obstruction and interference we're seeing out there, and all the arguments around these calls, I have to wonder how much of it would go away if coaches were instructing their players on these points.
Coaches, before you ever hit the field, are you instructing your fielders to not block the bases without the ball?
Do you drill into your runners that they must slide or avoid contact with the fielders?
It seems that if you were- and your players are understanding this instruction and following your orders- obstruction and interference would all but vanish.
If the players are being taught the right way to react on these plays, how come we still see so much of it?
Yes, we see plays like this all the time. We see fielders blocking bases and runners crashing into fielders.
We can only hope that the umpires making the call are all judging the same elements of the play based on some common, pre-defined standards. That would go a long way toward getting uniformity in the enforcement of obstruction and interference calls.
We can argue this all day and, in fact, I've heard these same agruments for years!
Let me throw out one more angle on obstruction/interference then I'm off to bed. I just got home from playing a double header on my men's fastpitch team, then went and filled-in for a late game on a friend's slow pitch team. Frankly, I'm about too bushed to type!
With all the rampant obstruction and interference we're seeing out there, and all the arguments around these calls, I have to wonder how much of it would go away if coaches were instructing their players on these points.
Coaches, before you ever hit the field, are you instructing your fielders to not block the bases without the ball?
Do you drill into your runners that they must slide or avoid contact with the fielders?
It seems that if you were- and your players are understanding this instruction and following your orders- obstruction and interference would all but vanish.
If the players are being taught the right way to react on these plays, how come we still see so much of it?
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Bret you said the same thing that I have been saying. ?The ultimate decision to obstruction did the defender alter or impede the course of the runner without possession of the ball. ?You cant make a blanket statement that you can or can not straddle because it depends on the situation. ?In ptwbooms situation you can straddle 1st or 3rd on the throw back as long as you give the runner room to get back. Like I tell the players when they are base running you can not run into any one you have to avoid the collision and if the was obstruction you just have to hope the umpire saw it.
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So basically, the only thing left to settle is:
To straddle or not to straddle! ;D
We seem to be in agreeance that the fielder must HAVE possssion of the ball in order to block the bag. Right? And this applies to ALL bases?
Blocking the bag is not allowing the baserunner FULL access to the bag? Or just a corner or a chunk of it?
I have some Ol' School softball playing parents on my 12U all-star rec team and I got jumped on by 3 of them that I was WRONG on what I was teaching the girls. They are stuck in the "A play was being made, and the fielder had EVERY right to block that bag without the ball in hand." I don't like to be a witch about things but I got kind of heated >
and told them that I would bring the proof that I was RIGHT! LOL!
To straddle or not to straddle! ;D
We seem to be in agreeance that the fielder must HAVE possssion of the ball in order to block the bag. Right? And this applies to ALL bases?
Blocking the bag is not allowing the baserunner FULL access to the bag? Or just a corner or a chunk of it?
I have some Ol' School softball playing parents on my 12U all-star rec team and I got jumped on by 3 of them that I was WRONG on what I was teaching the girls. They are stuck in the "A play was being made, and the fielder had EVERY right to block that bag without the ball in hand." I don't like to be a witch about things but I got kind of heated >
and told them that I would bring the proof that I was RIGHT! LOL!
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Robey the only way to answer the question about blocking the bag is the question did the defensive player alter or hinder the runner in way with out the ball.
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If there is obviously no play at the base then it is just stupid and could cause a lot of injuries to block the base and even to straddle it. If the play isnt close and there is no was the ball is coming into a base that a runner is. The runner wont slide and could very well and legally take the fielder out. Now if there is a possible play anywhere then straddling is the best way to avoid contact IMO
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Hey, Robey- when I see you at the Westerville tournament I'll let you borrow my rule book and you can show that to the parents who say you're wrong!
Or you can send them to talk to me. ;D
And, yep, the obstruction rule applies equally to ALL bases.
Softballump, as I read your further comments and we get deeper into this thread, I get the feeling that our opinions on straddling the base are closer together than it first seemed.
Straddling the base MIGHT get you an obstruction call, if the action actually impedes the fielder. If it doesn't, then you can't have obstruction.
I can envision a couple of plays to illustrate this.
1) Play at plate. Catcher straddles the plate awaiting the throw. The runner is still well up the line and running full speed. The runner never breaks stride or alters her path. The ball arrives well ahead of the runner and she is tagged out.
Most likely not obstruction on that play, depite the catcher at some point straddling the plate. The runners progress to the plate was not impeded.
2) Same play, but the runner is much closer to the plate and must begin sliding before the catcher receives the ball. She is then tagged out.
Probable obstruction, as the runner had to alter her path- she was forced to slide- before the catcher got the ball. If the catcher was not standing over the plate without the ball, the runner would have the legal option to remain on her feet.
3) This one I'm sure we all agree on.
Shortstop straddles second base without the ball as the runner tries to round the bag and go to third. The fielder being in the way either bumps the runner, forces the runner to go out around her or stop unnecessarily at second.
I bet that we would all consider that one to be obstruction.
Straddling the base MIGHT be considered blocking the base. This could possibly vary from play to play.
Straddling MIGHT lead to an obstruction call if it is both deemed to have blocked the base AND impeded the runner trying to reach the base.
Blocking a base without the ball is in and of itself not illegal.
Blocking a base without the ball AND impeding the runner is illegal and a perfect example of obstruction. Both things have to happen to get that call.
From a coaching standpoint, the safest way to avoid an obstruction call is to teach your fielders to set-up just out of the basepath to receive the throw, then to move into the path for the tag. The sequence would be- receive, block, tag.
If they do it the other way around- block, receive, tag- then they are opening themselves up for an obstruction call.
Or you can send them to talk to me. ;D
And, yep, the obstruction rule applies equally to ALL bases.
Softballump, as I read your further comments and we get deeper into this thread, I get the feeling that our opinions on straddling the base are closer together than it first seemed.
Straddling the base MIGHT get you an obstruction call, if the action actually impedes the fielder. If it doesn't, then you can't have obstruction.
I can envision a couple of plays to illustrate this.
1) Play at plate. Catcher straddles the plate awaiting the throw. The runner is still well up the line and running full speed. The runner never breaks stride or alters her path. The ball arrives well ahead of the runner and she is tagged out.
Most likely not obstruction on that play, depite the catcher at some point straddling the plate. The runners progress to the plate was not impeded.
2) Same play, but the runner is much closer to the plate and must begin sliding before the catcher receives the ball. She is then tagged out.
Probable obstruction, as the runner had to alter her path- she was forced to slide- before the catcher got the ball. If the catcher was not standing over the plate without the ball, the runner would have the legal option to remain on her feet.
3) This one I'm sure we all agree on.
Shortstop straddles second base without the ball as the runner tries to round the bag and go to third. The fielder being in the way either bumps the runner, forces the runner to go out around her or stop unnecessarily at second.
I bet that we would all consider that one to be obstruction.
Straddling the base MIGHT be considered blocking the base. This could possibly vary from play to play.
Straddling MIGHT lead to an obstruction call if it is both deemed to have blocked the base AND impeded the runner trying to reach the base.
Blocking a base without the ball is in and of itself not illegal.
Blocking a base without the ball AND impeding the runner is illegal and a perfect example of obstruction. Both things have to happen to get that call.
From a coaching standpoint, the safest way to avoid an obstruction call is to teach your fielders to set-up just out of the basepath to receive the throw, then to move into the path for the tag. The sequence would be- receive, block, tag.
If they do it the other way around- block, receive, tag- then they are opening themselves up for an obstruction call.
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Bret,
? ? I will HUNT you DOWN in Westerville! ?;D ?Thank you for the broken down clarification. ?Some of these rules can be so complex that I have to just walk away from what I am reading to regroup. ?They are VERY easy to misinterpret. ?The umpires that work our rec league probably HATE to see my team waiting for them. ? ?I am a coach that asks if I don't get a ruling. ?
? ? I will HUNT you DOWN in Westerville! ?;D ?Thank you for the broken down clarification. ?Some of these rules can be so complex that I have to just walk away from what I am reading to regroup. ?They are VERY easy to misinterpret. ?The umpires that work our rec league probably HATE to see my team waiting for them. ?
?I am a coach that asks if I don't get a ruling. ?
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Robey that is what I like. If a coach asks in friendly manner I am more than happy to explain a rule or why I made a call I made and if you can show me Im wrong im happy that I can get the rule right. We always have to remember this game is for the players and not for us.
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SBUmp,
I always ask in a kind manner. I know it makes for a not so nice time if we start off on the wrong foot. And I don't like to be approached with nastiness. I think it helps when there is an open forum between the coach and the umpire. Especially at the rec level. I applaud ANY umpire that works Rec ball. Talk about patience! We don't learn if we don't ask.
I always ask in a kind manner. I know it makes for a not so nice time if we start off on the wrong foot. And I don't like to be approached with nastiness. I think it helps when there is an open forum between the coach and the umpire. Especially at the rec level. I applaud ANY umpire that works Rec ball. Talk about patience! We don't learn if we don't ask.
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