Catching and Catchers discussion Catcher calling pitches.

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Ok I never said that I no one can call my pitches. If the catcher and I are calling pitches I will shake her off until were on the same page. If my coaches throw down specific pitches and I will throw them. The catcher and I have played together since I was in 7th grade and I play on a high level team, so we all know what we are doing and my coaches trust us. In other words they don?t have some of the egos that other coaches have. My point being is that if you know and believe your players to be some of the best, let them call.

Here is an example: I remember when Dallas Escobedo from Arizona State was in the WCWS and the catcher gave an interview about how she doesn?t really ever know what is coming. Dallas throws whatever she wants even though the coaches give her signs of what to throw. During high school I do not call and I don?t expect to call in college.

Klump That is exactly what I am saying

Who do you play for in the summer? PM me if you don't want it public. THanks

 

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I wonder why MLB pitchers don't call their own games???
Those guys make millions, study the hitters, do all the work to get to that level....????? Firebird sounds like she plays on teams, where the coach & other players just are not as good as she is.........Or so she thinks.....

At no level of football does the QB presently have control to make the play call. We see that in baseball, that HS & college coaches still call them, most if not all of the time. Now these are sports where the athlete can go on to make millions.

Not sure why everyone keeps making a big deal about catcher calling pitches. If she will not be doing it at the highest level - Div. I ball, that most seek to achieve - then what is the big deal??????

Whatever is the best system for each team is what should be used. I see many daddies calling pitches for their daughters from the stands. It is a TEAM sport - whatever is best for the team is what should be done!

Umm...pitchers do call their own games, in a way. Have you ever seen MLB pitchers shake off catchers? Happens all the time. When the pitcher and catcher are not on the same page the pitcher shakes them off until the catcher throws down the correct pitch and location.

Peyton Manning calls his own game. He was hurt all last season but was still on the roster so if he was able to go he would have called his own game. Also, QB's at the NFL, College, and a few HS teams allow their QB to audible, so at times they are "calling" their own play based on the defensive scheme. That being said, NFL teams have coaches with a birds-eye view, pics are taken, etc. so the coaches up in the booth have an advantage.

There are some D1 schools that do allow the catcher and pitcher to take control of the game. As a D1 coach that Doug Lenos forwarded on this thread pointed out, they do not want robot players; they want them to think for themselves. As another D1 coach pointed out, they let the catcher and pitcher take control of the game. It happens on occasion so why not teach them. It will not hurt them by any stretch of the imagination but it could on hinder them depending on the school. Of course, grades first...etc.

Len

 

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For me it is what is best for TEAM - all involved. If the bench coaching is strong, then I would want the coaches calling it.

Last night I thought, "How does the catcher calling the game make them or the team better?" - provided the coach is up to calling the game as well.

I don't think the arguement that it gets them more in the game works. My catcher should be focusing in her framing, setup, blocking, runners when on base etc.. there is plenty to keep her focused and in the game.

Frankly, at no time should she ever drift in focus. If she and the pitcher meet with the bench coach between innings and discuss what is working and what is not - all three should be on the same page and have input in the success of the battery. I can not see any scenario where letting the pitcher and catcher handle it on their own is better for the TEAM than the three working together as described above...

 

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The colts are a perfect example why not to allow a qb to have such control. When Manning went down their season did as well - there was too much dependency on him tied to the success of the team ... yes, he does well, it is amazing but does his complete control of the offense really bring them any more super bowls? Answer is no .. 1 ring in 12 years... Trent Dilfer has 1 ring as do many... TEAM sports are exactly that - players and coaches all share roles and responsibilities - too much in any one area is a bad idea... Eli is in a totatly diff scenario - the Giants and Coffman are control freaks - but he excels and honestly probably will have a better career than Payten when it is all said and done - esp if they win the superbowl this year..

 

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The colts are a perfect example why not to allow a qb to have such control. When Manning went down their season did as well - there was too much dependency on him tied to the success of the team ... yes, he does well, it is amazing but does his complete control of the offense really bring them any more super bowls? Answer is no .. 1 ring in 12 years... Trent Dilfer has 1 ring as do many... TEAM sports are exactly that - players and coaches all share roles and responsibilities - too much in any one area is a bad idea... Eli is in a totatly diff scenario - the Giants and Coffman are control freaks - but he excels and honestly probably will have a better career than Payten when it is all said and done - esp if they win the superbowl this year..

Manning doesn't play defense and is not a RB. Passing was never their problem when he was at the helm. He is a 4-time NFL MVP.......
Like you said...it takes TEAM effort.

Len

 

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I'm sorry, but I don't buy any comparisons between adult MLB players and youth catchers (boys or girls). Yes, of course college coaches want girls that think for themselves and are students of the game, but I'm pretty sure that a college coach is going to recruit a .350 hitting catcher who doesn't call games over a .250 catcher who does.

My point is that learning to call pitches comes with many years of experience of being a student of the game, and many "kids" just don't have those years of experience. I will agree whole-heartedly that on some teams, the catcher probably is going to better than any of the coaches on staff do this. But we will have to agree to disagree if you say that the catchers should always do it, or that a coaches role in game strategy is done once they set the lineup. It's no different in my mind than parents and the children they are responsible for raising, or managers and the people they hire.

Good coaches have the benefit of years of experience playing and/or coaching, and are usually going to be better equipped to determine strategy during a game including pitch calling. As some have noted, in the end winning is all about execution, and strategy is only part of the battle, but a coach's role is to do everything they can to give his or her team the best chance to succeed.

 

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The 'goal' of the NFL is to win Super Bowls... not MVP's. Brady is in the most controlled environment in the NFL (BB's) yet, he has three. Would you want Payten's, Marino's career's if you could choose or someone with several SB rings? Big Ben, Elway, etc...

The only one's counting MVP's are the ones without the SB's... Danny Marino would trade all the MVP's, etc for 1 RING!

 

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Good coaches have the benefit of years of experience playing and/or coaching, and are usually going to be better equipped to determine strategy during a game including pitch calling. As some have noted, in the end winning is all about execution, and strategy is only part of the battle, but a coach's role is to do everything they can to give his or her team the best chance to succeed.

Bingo.

 

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Great points about Brady and the system he plays in, Doug.

 

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Tom has a huge role, but we saw how he and the offensive coordinator got into it when he threw the int mid-season ... what is interesting is that somehow we tend to think that being in a controlled environment is restricting for the player .. when in fact it is liberating (esp mentally) .. when the player knows what their role is, the boundries they can operate in and have trained and studied all scenarios within their control - they are FREE to play full speed without fear of a mistake.

Mental stress slows a player down and drains them. I want all my players to know they have 100% freedom to react within the role for their position .. that is how you get players to perform at the their greatest level.

 

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I hate football.

 

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The 'goal' of the NFL is to win Super Bowls... not MVP's. Brady is in the most controlled environment in the NFL (BB's) yet, he has three. Would you want Payten's, Marino's career's if you could choose or someone with several SB rings? Big Ben, Elway, etc...

The only one's counting MVP's are the ones without the SB's... Danny Marino would trade all the MVP's, etc for 1 RING!

I totally agree that the goal is to win Super Bowls. What I'm saying is Manning did his part, and for a long time he was considered the best at his position. Coaches, other players, and management are the one's that have failed, not Manning.

Len

 

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I hate football.

You're talking European s o c c e r, yea I hate that too.

But I hate anything European except a few beers.

 

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I think there is a big difference on this issue between travel ball and college ball. While we scout potential opponents when possible at the travel ball level and make recommendations to the catchers in our pre-game routine on particular hitters, the scouting is usually a luxury. There are so many teams at the travel ball level. In-conference scouting at the college level, however, is pretty darn good and is an argument for having a coach call the game.

Beginning with when the team was coached by JoeA, our two regular catchers have been calling their own games since they were 11. They have the best look at the quality of the pitches the young woman in the circle is throwing on any given day and they remember what calls worked against a particular hitter earlier in the game.

We don't have any illusions that a college coach would definitely allow either of these two ladies to call their own game, but as has been pointed out above, there are some coaches who do allow the catcher to call the game and I suspect most college coaches would agree with the "we don't want robots" position even if that college coach calls his or her own game. Catchers have to be able to come in and tell their coaches what is or isn't working for the pitcher and what is or isn't working against a particular hitter. If they have spent their travel ball careers becoming acutely aware of the "tells" on those matters because they are calling their own games, I would think they would be of more worth to the college coaching staff in that regard.

As he knows, I have the utmost respect for coachjwb. But his comment that "a coach's role is to do everything they can to give his or her team the best chance to succeed" raises a question of coaching philosophy: as travel ball coaches are we looking only to win or are we looking to develop our players and hone their instincts about how a real ballplayer thinks? Neither philosophy is wrong, but depending upon which approach you take, you will weight differently the marginal assessment of benefits versus risks.

As a community of fastpitch coaches we could, and have in past threads, transfer this philosophical debate to the question whether runners should have leeway to make their own decisions when the play is in front of them. Some coaches give no leeway and others err on the side of the runner using her direct view and assessment of the situation, and also on the side of the runner internalizing and growing from any mistakes she makes when making her own base-running decisions.

Again, I don't think either philosophy is wrong. We have opted at the travel ball level to put player development above the win-loss record, but others can choose to reverse those priorities and I don't think they can be faulted for that judgement choice.

 

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Cgs ... excellent post, and no offense taken for sure!

You're absolutely right that, above everything else, the biggest part of a travel coach's role is to develop his or her players. I think that 80-90% of that development should be occurring in practices, scrimmages, etc. I do think that during a game the responsibility for putting the team in the best position to win takes on similar importance, as evidenced by the fact that many of them put the best lineup on the field in critical games. If a catcher is trained to call the game and is in fact a better pitch caller than the coach, then I am 100% supportive of them calling the game.

Perhaps the teams my DD has been on during the years (some of which I have coached so I am responsible as well) haven't done a good job in training the catchers, or perhaps our catchers just didn't have the interest or ability in doing it but, with a few exceptions, I have felt like we have usually had someone on our coaching staff who proved themselves much better doing this than our catchers. And I know that my pitching (and now coaching) DD shares a similar philosophy.

 

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Looks like the thread has exhausted itself. A lot of strong and well thought out opinions on both sides. I thank the OFC community for all the advice. I have my daughter, her catcher and coach looking at this as well.

 

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This has been an interesting thread to read, all the more now that I know the pitcher and catcher. Great young ladies.

 

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One more...

Doug,
This is a great topic! If we have a young lady that thinks the game, has the willingness to prepare, and is emotionally stable - why not let her call the game. It definitely leads to a better flow for the pitcher and they have the best seat in the house. On the other hand, if you have a catcher that is not capable or willing to put the time and effort into the preparation of knowing opposing hitters, I can see a coach with all the information in front of them call the game. I am not sitting on the middle of the fence but it is all up to the type of player you have behind the plate and the opportunities they were giving prior to college. My best catchers all called the game and we finally have another that is ready and able to call the game. One catcher that is able and the other.............we will call the game from the dugout!!!! There you go and hope all is well in Ohio!!!!

Mike Candrea
Head Softball Coach
The University of Arizona
NCAA National Champions
1991, 93, 94, 96, 97, 2001, 06, 07
McKale Center, University of Arizona
1 National Championship Dr.
Tucson, AZ 85721-0096

 

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Doug,

We appreciate the point of view from a well respected college coach. We need to remember that he's talking about catchers calling pitches in an elite college program.

Somebody has to teach the girls How throughout their developmental years. Very few coaches take the time to show how, when, why, where to call this pitch vs. that pitch. They would rather control the game themselves, in the name of efficiency. ("Better to get a win now, than let a catcher struggle through the pitch calling process...)

If knowledgeable people started this instruction when the catchers were young, it would be a non-issue by 16U/18U. And coaches could work on others areas of the game.

 

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I was a "de-facto" pitching coach for a couple of years of weekday tb (14U). Sort of just learned on the job so I'm by all means no expert.

I liked to do a brief discussion with the pitcher and catcher as she was prepping her gear for the following inning. We'd discuss where we were in the batting order and what kind of general approach we should take with the upcoming batters. I would then, let the pitcher and catcher work the specific calls.

After the inning, we'd take a brief second to discuss what worked and what didn't, how the pitcher was feeling about different pitches, whether they were on the same page, and repeat the cycle.

One of the most fun things for me personally in coaching this role was watching the pitcher and catcher smile at each other as they came trotting in from a successful inning.