Catching and Catchers discussion Charging the catcher

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About two weekends ago, there was a play at home. There was a girl running from third to home. ?Before this girl even got half way there, the ball was already in the catchers glove and the girl had no chance of being safe. Therefore, she came in full speed ahead without sliding trying to take out the catcher and forcefully knock the ball out of her glove. The breath was taken out of the catcher and she was then bruised pretty badly. ?The umpire didn't even give the runner a warning.
?Any thoughts on this?? ?I always thought that when a player came in charging like that with elbows up that the runner was supposed to be ejected. ?What is the ruling on this?? ?

 

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The correct ruling is that the runner is to be called "out" for remaining on her feet and crashing into the fielder.

If the collision is judged to be malicious (ie: violent in nature, with the runner deliberately trying to knock the fielder over, lowering a shoulder, throwing an elbow, etc.) then the runner is also to be ejected.

I have a lengthy post on this subject on another thread. Basically, my other post says that if this is not being called, chances are that you have an inexperienced or ill-trained umpire.

This is a protestable call. Coaches, be familiar with the rules under which you are playing and use the rule book described protest procedure to remedy the misinterpretation of the rules.

That way, the correct rule will be enforced and, with any luck, the umpire will then learn the correct rule and not blow this call in future games.

 

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LOL...would love for any player to try that with our catcher.
If anyone was EVER dumb enough to try that on our catcher she would be taking a ride in care-flight pretty quick. We have one of the toughest catchers in the area ,hands down.
Also one of the best hockey players around also...lol. ;D

 

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That's not the point Tim.

The rules are there to AVOID injury, not to make sure that it is the offending party that feels the pain.

Umpires are not doing anyone a favor by not calling this type of offense. Those are our daughters out there in harm's way. If a player, either through ignorance, poor coaching, or just general meanness sets out to knock down a defensive player who is in possession of the ball - boot them. If the coach argues - boot them too. Let's make the game safer.

And umpires, the one of the reasons for this overaggressive base running is that often runners are impeded by fielders standing on the bag or in the runner's line when they do not have the ball. Be a bit more quick to call interference, and that will help move girls to the correct position and keep everyone safer.

 

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I have more often seen the play where the catcher is practically sitting on home plate (without the ball) and the runner has literally no where to go. Coaches should teach their catchers to stand out in front of the plate and sweep the tag or at least straddle the plate so there is some access to the plate for the runner. If the catchers were taught correctly, there would be far less collisions and hurt players during plays at the plate. JMO

 

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WELL THE CATCHER WASN'T THE ONLY ONE WHO WOULD HAVE GOTTEN HURT..........THE CATCHER HAD ALL THE EQUITMENT ON THE RUNNER DIDN'T!! WHO DO YOU THINK FELT IT MORE? I'M SURE IT HURT THE CATCHER TOO BUT THE RUNNER RAN INTO ALL OF THAT GEAR.

 

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That is a ridiculous response. The catcher is stationary with a runner coming at full speed. I don't care what equipment they may have on, it is a dangerous play that is against the rules. If you're out by 10 feet or more, simply slide or take the tag standing up and move on to the next inning. No need for serious injury. This is a GAME.

 

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I agree with "Sideliner" 100%. It is the umps responsibility to deter any kind of malicious contact. This is just a game.

 

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As a catcher, i set up so that the runner has access to the plate until i have the ball, any other way and that would be catchers interference, and if a runner comes full speed at me im going to do my best to avoid injury but i say let them come full speed i will make sure they feel it and next time they will not do it

 

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Isn't the rule slide or give up. We had that play in a CYO game and lost cuz our girl didn't slide even though the catcher dropped the ball(she also was not one to mess with, which is besides the point). They have to protect the plate but the runner also knows the rules. I would have protested if I was that coach. No matter what age play by the rules, sound like a team that was taught to play dirty.

 

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I too am a catcher. ?ive also had this happen to me. :-/ ?i had the ball and the girl crossed her arms and thrust them into my collar bone. ?i had gear on and it still knocked me completely off my feet. ?and i was a few feet up the line from home plate, so it was clear that she was going to be out. ?i also wasnt blocking the plate, i was standing. ?its not much fun ?most catchers are tough from my experience, and runners should not put that asumption to the test. ?its like a car trying to take out a semi. ?its not going to work. ?

 

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I've never really been well informed on the whole aspect of interferance and when it becomes dangerous play. I've got a few questions and any information would be appreciated becuase as a catcher, I would like to avoid getting run into and/or hurting another player on a play involving a collision.

1- Why doesn't the runner, upon realizing that she will be out, return to third base, or get into a pickle and hope for a bad throw (which happens more often than not when players are put in that pressure situation to make a good, accurate throw)? That seems to be the most logical in a non-game winning run situation.

2- As a catcher, I've always been taught to set up on the top of the plate, and as the ball is arriving, "dropstep" into a position where the plate can easily be blocked once you have the ball. However, if the catcher does not have the ball yet, isn't it a little bit of our responsibility as catchers to move out of the way to allow the runner the plate if you don't have a play at home? Or do as i do and set up for the plate to be blocked and then simply lift it up/move it forward to clear at least half of the plate. That way nobody gets hurt (even though i'm sure we all think that we could make the other girl "feel the pain" if we needed to)

3- From an umpiring standpoint, how do you determine whether or not the girl is meaning to cause a collision or if she is just a poorly trained player? I've seen first basemen who are poorly trained that will touch the bag for the force, but then preceed to "tag" (more like an aggressive push) the runner on her way to first. At what point do you say she meant to do that? I know that my brother was once thrown out for "having the intent to hurt the other player in his eye" What happens when the catcher is interfering and the runner has no place to go and the catcher gets knocked over or injured and you call interferance and get yelled at for allowed dangerous play?

3.5- all of this seems to be one big judgement call, and if it is, how can it be protestable? You certainly aren't going to go make the girls re-inact it for the tournament director so how would they know? To some umpires they may be able to read body language, but to other more forgiving "let the girls play" kind of umpires lack of training may be a suitable excuse.

Like I said, and I'm sure you can tell by now, I'm still a bit confused on this topic... any answers and/or advice on how to avoid collisions would be great, becuase I certainly do not want to be injured.

 

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Thanks everyone for the information. ?I am just trying to figure out what the best way to handle this situation if it ever comes up again, and ?with the win or die stragedy of softball that is growing, it probably will. ?I just do not want our catcher to get hurt because of the lack of knowledge by other teams and even our team of what the proper way to handle something like this is.

thanks!
angel

 

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Softball 4 life,

Those are all good questions. I'll try to offer some good answers!

1) Hard to tell what's going through a runner's head as she rounds third at blazing speed, fueled by excitement and adrenaline, intent on scoring that run.

Players often do things in the heat of the moment that aren't "logical" or the "best choice".

Stopping and heading back to third is an option. Another option would be to execute a "slide-by" or "backdoor" slide to get around the catcher.

Whichever choice the runner makes, the rules say that they cannot remain on their feet and crash into the catcher.

2) My daughter was also a catcher through most of her playing days. Here are some of the things I taught her and that we picked-up in catching clinics.

Especially with the recent rule changes on obstruction, the catcher should not be setting-up "on top of the plate". The rules state that the catcher cannot block the plate without the ball.

Instead, set-up just in front of the plate. After receiving the ball, do your drop back into the basepath. Once you have the ball, you may legally block the base. You can also execute a swipe tag on the runner.

By the obstruction rule, you must allow the runner access to ALL of the plate, not just a portion of it. The runner is free to take any basepath she chooses to reach the plate (or any other base).

Blocking the base without the ball leaves the catcher open to an obstruction call. However, even if the catcher is blocking without the ball, it DOES NOT relieve the base runner from he responsibility to either slide or avoid contact. It does not give the runner free rein to mow down the catcher.

An interference call on the runner takes presedence over an obstruction call on the catcher. Umpires that know what they're doing will make this call.

Bottom line- if the catcher does not have the ball, they should not be blocking the base. Move out of the way of the runner if you do not have the ball!

3) The umpire must use all of his experience and rules knowledge to make these calls the right way. It is a tough call to make, since the play is usually "bang-bang" and has to be made in an instant.

Some things the umpire can look for:

Did the runner alter her path to make contact with the catcher?

Did the runner slow before making contact?

Did the runner lower a shoulder or throw an elbow before making contact?

There a basically four levels of contact that can be made on this play.

A runner can legally slide and make contact with the catcher. There is no penalty for contact made while executing a legal slide.

A runner might make incidental contact on a play, with the two players barely brushing against each other, or with the runner making a quick move away from the catcher at the last instant. That would be "nothing" and no penalty would be enforced.

A runner might simply remain on her feet and, without altering her path or doing anything malicious, and crash into the catcher. The runner should be called "out" for doing this.

A runner might remain on her feet and crash the catcher with great force, with the intent of dislodging the ball. If she does any of the things mentioned above (lower a shoulder, throw an elbow or alter her path to make the contact) the runner is "out" and an ejection is warranted.

It takes an experienced official to sort out which of these happened in the split second that this play unfolds.

3.5) Yes, there is umpire judgement involved. But, most of the judgement involves the intensity of the crash and the intent of the runner.

What is protestable is a rule interpretation. For instance, if a runner crashes into the catcher and is not called out, the umpire has not properly interpreted a rule. That is grounds for a protest. The rules specifically call this an infraction and give a specific penalty.

Plays at home should be governed by two simple principles. If the catcher does not have the ball get out of the way, and that runners must either slide or avoid contact on every play.

 

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Thanks Bretman! That really helped me understand the collision situation a lot better. While i was reading your advice on how to set up for a play at the plate i realized that i made a typing mistake when i said i set up "on top of the plate" i meant to say that i set up in front of the plate like you described. oops. Thanks again

 

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All ?I have to say is that if a ?catcher is in my way at home plate, she will feel serious pain, because if I'm scoring, Im scoring. The runner has the right-away so if ?the catcher is ?stupid enough ?to block the plate without the ball, then its ?their ?fault. If a catcher has the ball and has to ?wait ?for the girl to get to her, why wouldnt she stand ?up and run at ?the girl ?and tag ?her?

 

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This is another situation where there needs to be consistency from the umpires. We had a situation where the catcher sat up in front of home plate (between home and third) without the ball. Our base runner had to go around or THROUGH the catcher to reach the plate. Doing as she was taught, avoid contact, she got tagged before she could step around the catcher and back onto the plate. Instead of catcher interference, which should have been called, we were told that had the girl attempted to go through the catcher, she would have been safe, but since the base runner chooses the base path, the catcher was not interfering, as the runner 'chose' another path. This is teaching the girls that full contact is ok, go in hard and low and when the dust settles, see whats called. I calls were more consistent, alot of contact could be avoided.

 

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A base runner crashing into the catcher simply isn't smart. ? It is macho but not smart. ? ?I have seen many baseball and softball games when the runner ran into the catcher and it seems that the runner, ? the player without protection, usually gets the injury, when there is one. ? ?I like the two principles posted by softball_4_life. ?That makes it simple for everyone involved.

 

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Pigtails,

While I admire your "gung-ho" approach to the game, if you pull that in one of my games (or a game where the umpire knows what he's doing), two things will happen. First you will be called out. Then you will be ejected.

As a third option, possibly you will be injured.

The runner has the right of way, but the runner DOES NOT have the right to crash into the catcher. This is clearly stated in the rules.

If both obstruction (fielder blocking without the ball) and interference (runner remaining upright and crashing the catcher) occur on the same play, the obstruction call is ignored and the interference penalty is enforced.

I will agree with the statement that there needs to be consistency from the umpires on these calls. Well trained umpires WILL make this call consistently.

How many games must be played in a typical week throughout the state? The number must easily be in the thousands.

Wish we could have experienced, well-trained officials in place for all of them! The reality is that you will get a broad range of experience from city-to-city, between travel and league ball and even from field-to-field on the very same day.

In the meantime, if coaches teach their fielders not to block bases without the ball and teach their runners not to crash into fielders, we will have eliminated the vast majority of problems on these type of plays.

 

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well said bretman