Elyria High Pioneers

[coachjwb]

I was not at the game but did attend the semi-finals game with Lebanon and Hoover on Thursday, and I thought the game was officiated very fairly (and I don't buy any arguments that the NEO teams had some kind of home umpire advantage). Even though I'm from NEO and like the Elyria team, I too was rooting for Lebanon to win it because I have very good friends from there. While Lebanon did get sloppy on the last play, and much kudos to Elyria for their aggressiveness, and while there was definitely an obstruction, I 100% agree that the runner should have been returned to 3B. I would love to know if this was discussed by the umpires or if that argument was pressed by the Lebanon coaches ... I am thinking so based on what Coach Urton seems to be pointing towards almost as soon as the play occurred. I can see the place was total chaos so I'm guessing that factored in the quick decision, but as Joe says, you've got to get that call right, and I don't believe they did. Who knows what would have happened in extra innings ... the 2 teams seem pretty evenly matched and Elyria may still have won ... but that's what should have decided the game vs. that call.

 

[backstop09]

...The throw to third came so quickly (with the runner maybe one step past third)...

I don't know, man - that's one of the longest "maybe one step past third" 's I've ever seen. You can't even see third base on the picture she is so far past it. She's at the pitcher's circle already when the catcher throws back toward third.

 

[JoeA1010]

backstop09, you are right, she was a few steps past third, but as I think about this play, I might be changing my mind. I'm doing a bit of research. Does anyone have the NFHS rulebook? You can't get it free online and I'd like to read the effect of obstruction.

 

[wow]

This debate will rage well into the future, for years and years. I don't believe either team wanted to win like this. Its really unfortunate a D1 sate title came down to a call of this magnitude.

Elyria was the underdog from the start of regionals and played very well throughout the tourney. Lebanon was the number one seed and lead the majority of the game. The real problem is that it was not the girls who decided the game. A game like that should NEVER be allowed to end like that and it delegitimizes the win. Elyria did not deserve that. For Lebanon they did not deserve to lose like that either. I understand it was a judgement call but I cant imagine how those umps sleep at night.

 

[JoeA1010]

I don't have the NFHS rule book, but if the rule is the same as the NCAA rule, I think I've changed my mind.

The NCAA rules specifically give a situation that is about the same as this. A runner on second is obstructed rounding third and a throw goes home from the outfield. The runner would not have scored at home. The catcher then throws to second to try to get the batter-runner and the ruling is that the runner on third can now be given home if she would have scored (including the throw to second) but for the obstruction. The point is that the throw to second is part of the play and you have to decide whether the runner would have scored if she wasn't obstructed and that throw to second occurs.

As it pertains to this game, ask yourself whether the Elyria runner would have scored had she not been obstructed and kept going home, including the throw to third base. She would have easily scored. The throw to third would not have happened without the obstruction, but that's not part of the rule and not for the umpires to dissect. I think the proper application of the rule is for the umpires to ask whether the runner would have scored, given the way the play played out, without the obstruction, and the answer has to be yes.

 

[Dad of Daughters]

I don't have the NFHS rule book, but if the rule is the same as the NCAA rule, I think I've changed my mind.

The NCAA rules specifically give a situation that is about the same as this. A runner on second is obstructed rounding third and a throw goes home from the outfield. The runner would not have scored at home. The catcher then throws to second to try to get the batter-runner and the ruling is that the runner on third can now be given home if she would have scored (including the throw to second) but for the obstruction. The point is that the throw to second is part of the play and you have to decide whether the runner would have scored if she wasn't obstructed and that throw to second occurs.

As it pertains to this game, ask yourself whether the Elyria runner would have scored had she not been obstructed and kept going home, including the throw to third base. She would have easily scored. The throw to third would not have happened without the obstruction, but that's not part of the rule and not for the umpires to dissect. I think the proper application of the rule is for the umpires to ask whether the runner would have scored, given the way the play played out, without the obstruction, and the answer has to be yes.

Joe, maybe we should just send this to Bay City, MI for consideration by the inhabitants of the GLIAC Ivory Tower. If they, gasp, misapply the rules, all should be careful. Don't want to find yourself in a GLIAC game incident report. Thanks WSU! I mean this situation isn't as complicated as the legal positioning of the catcher during a pitch or anything. But you never know!!

 

[JoeA1010]

Joe, maybe we should just send this to Bay City, MI for consideration by the inhabitants of the GLIAC Ivory Tower. If they, gasp, misapply the rules, all should be careful. Don't want to find yourself in a GLIAC game incident report. Thanks WSU! I mean this situation isn't as complicated as the legal positioning of the catcher during a pitch or anything. But you never know!!

Is that where the GLIAC office is located? I never knew. I called the GMAC the other day and they answered the phone and I got immediate results. I was looking to order some GMAC patches for our uniforms and they were sent the same day. I tried for two years to do this through the GLIAC and couldn't get anyone to respond.

 

[manitoudan]

To me the girl was just rounding third , she wasnt attempting to advance to home , and because she wasnt attempting to advance ( the catcher had or was in the immediate process of retrieving the ball ) she should NOT have been awarded home , yes she was obstructed , correct on that , but should not have been awarded home . Correct ?

 

[21 Rocks]

After watching the video, I just can't believe that a team as talented as Lebanon made so many errors ( mental and physical ) in one play. It just shows what enormous pressure does to players at all levels.

 

[JoeA1010]

To me the girl was just rounding third , she wasnt attempting to advance to home , and because she wasnt attempting to advance ( the catcher had or was in the immediate process of retrieving the ball ) she should NOT have been awarded home , yes she was obstructed , correct on that , but should not have been awarded home . Correct ?

Dan,

No, not correct. A runner doesn't have to attempt to advance to be awarded a base. It's simply what the umpire thought she would have reached without the obstruction. I don't get this at the college level, but when I did in travel ball, I would tell the umpire that we will just have two of our players pin a runner down at first base so she won't be able to attempt to advance, and therefore, she can't be awarded any more bases.

 

[JoeA1010]

As I think about this, with this being a play of such importance, it seems to me the OHSAA should consult with the UIC for Ohio (or whatever the top person or organization is for NFHS umpires in Ohio) and put out a statement either saying the umpires got it right, or they erred. No do-overs if they erred, but a statement seems in order.

 

[manitoudan]

Having read your clarification Joe I still cant fathom how blue thought she could have advanced to home on the play . Even with no obstruction the C was holding the ball at / very near when the runner rounded third . She had no real chance to advance . Am I right ? It did all happen super quick .

 

[JoeA1010]

Dan, I think what they are saying is that the runner could have advanced to home on the throw to third. In other words, pretend there was no obstruction and that the runner continues on to home and that the play defensively is carried out just as it was. The runner would score easily. I think it's the case that you must ask whether the runner would have reached home without the obstruction based upon the ball moving around the field exactly as it did (throw to third base included). You can't take that extra step and say the catcher wouldn't have thrown to third without the obstruction because then the umpires are charged with trying to decide what a team "should have done".

 

[Captain_Thunder]

Dan, I think what they are saying is that the runner could have advanced to home on the throw to third. In other words, pretend there was no obstruction and that the runner continues on to home and that the play defensively is carried out just as it was. The runner would score easily. I think it's the case that you must ask whether the runner would have reached home without the obstruction based upon the ball moving around the field exactly as it did (throw to third base included). You can't take that extra step and say the catcher wouldn't have thrown to third without the obstruction because then the umpires are charged with trying to decide what a team "should have done".

So it leaves a lot of "If"...........
Cause IF there was no obstruction she would have been farther down the line if on a dead run & left out to hang!!!!!!
IF she was rounding to spot the ball and decide - Catch has the ball running towards you & Pitcher is at the plate - Unless runner & coach are losing their minds - she retreats back to 3B! Watching from both angles - how can you not see that clearly??? Now in defense of the Umpires, they had to take all this in from their view only in a matter of seconds - but there are 4 of them in this game.
You may not be able to decide "what either team should have done" - but basic sense tells those who are able to look at the video - That Runner never would have scored without additional errors.....

 

[manitoudan]

Thats kinda the way I was seeing it Capt' Thunder , she rounds third , the catcher is standing there with the ball , of course she retreats back to 3b .. the C only threw to third because the girl stumbled and fell due to the obstruction , but never intended to run home at all .

 

[CARDS]

I think the umpires got it wrong. Stinks to have such a high stakes contest decided on a questionable call...
Lebanon did not help themselves however with the bobble off the batted ball, couple poor throws but that comes with the pressure of a State contest. Congrats to the State champion and Runner up.

 

[brownsfan]

Raising my girls near Elyria and facing their teams on a constant basis, I will say this...they know a rule book like a back of their hand. They could interpret that rule book with the rest of them. When we agreed to face them in Little League local contests (before the actual selection of All-Stars) we had a local rule in place on stealing home on a passed ball. So when we faced them, they stole home and would say we're playing under Little League rules, not the local rules. Point is, it forced us to step up our game as coaches.

Now on a completely different note and surprised no one remembers (or brought it up), this Elyria team; some of these same girls played at the Little League World Series back at 12U. This is why Elyria has a strong program year in and year out. The girls buy into their program at a very young age something we're trying to attempt to do.

 

[brownsfan]

I watched this video a number of times, I don't think the obstruction was called not just on the third baasemen but the person covering home plate. From the 3rd base angle, it appears she's in the base path. It was clear she was being sent from second to home was the coach was pointing home. Her stride was a push off the third base type push and collided. Yes she stuttered stepped, but still continued home. Going back to the WCWS I saw it called both ways with the catcher impeding the path to the base. What's the rule on collisions at the plate?

The reason why I am asking is because a couple years ago, we had a collision at the plate with our base-runner and she was called out. The opposing catcher was set up in front of the plate leaving the plate wide open and upon receiving the ball then moved to block the plate. If she was blocking the plate before receiving the ball then it would have gone in our favor.

 

[lhowser]

Here are a couple of interesting examples from MLB

Example 2 (Video): Type B: During the 6/13/11 Mets-Pirates game, baserunner R1 is obstructed by shortstop F6 while rounding second base (recall that contact need not occur). Because no play was being attempted on R1 at the time of the obstruction, this is Type B Obstruction. The umpires awarded R1 third base as a result of this act.

http://m.mlb.com/video/v15844089/nympit-reyes-called-for-interference-on-baserunner

Example 7 (Video): Type A: During the 6/13/12 Indians-Reds game, baserunner R3 collides with catcher F2 during a rundown between third base and home plate. Though replays indicate R3 initiated contact with F2, the fielder is clearly not in possession of nor in the act of fielding the ball, which is obstruction. Third baseman F6 is actively making a play on R3, qualifying this as Type A Obstruction. Therefore, the obstructed runner R3 must be awarded home plate. Related Play: Jerry Manuel ejected by Bill Welke for arguing Jose Reyes' obstruction during Shane Victorino pickle.

http://m.mlb.com/video/v22278711/clecin-mesoraco-scores-on-botched-rundown

 

[Julie]

In addition to the Little League success, three of the freshmen on the team -- the pitcher, the catcher and the left fielder -- have all played on the same travel team since they were roughly 8. A successful travel team, I should add, so the big stage wasn't new for them. A fourth freshman plays for the Bandits in Chicago and was committed to Ohio State as an eighth-grader.