Fastpitch Scorekeeping w iScore baseball

[fastpitchdad]

Closely Related to rules, is official scorekeeping....

Glad to discuss scorekeeping questions, and specifically help coach/answer questions OFC members may have on use of iScore App for fastpitch use .

 

[coachjwb]

Glad to see someone offering to do this ... there are lots of misperceptions out there about scorekeeping in general, and I'm sure the Apps all have their idiosyncrasies. I'll throw one out at you ... close game, runners on 2nd and 3rd, less than 2 outs. Ground ball to 3B ... 3B holds the ball so as not to take the risk to throw it to 1B and let the runner score. How do you score that?

 

[fastpitchdad]

(hopefully i can help with questions on the scoring app , there are a lot of experienced scorekeepers out there, and be glad to discuss how i would score situations.)

In this case, I would score a Fielders Choice

(in general, i default to follow Official Rules of Baseball for my scorekeeping, unless i have more specific published fast pitch reference to use..butin general i have found ORB to be the defacto standard.. others may differ )

Here is a similar scenario by NCAA

A. R. 14.2.7.1 In the bottom of the seventh inning with no one out and the winning run on third base, the batter taps the ball to the pitcher who makes no throw to first base to prevent the winning run from scoring. RULING?Credit the batter with a fielders choice to gain first base and an additional fielders choice if she gains second base due to indifference.
source: NCAA Rule 14. Official Softball Statistics Rules

 

[SoCal_Dad]

Here are some situations that give people trouble - both from a scorekeeping perspective and how to enter it on the app.

1. R1 on 2B, 0 outs. Batter swings and misses on WP for strike 3 and B-R beats throw to 1B.

2. R1 on 2B, 0 outs. Batter swings and misses on WP for strike 3 and reaches 1B safely due to wild throw from F2 to F3.

3. R1 on 1B, 0 outs. Batter bunts and reaches 1B safely due to wild throw from F5 to 1B.

4. R1 on 1B, 0 outs. Batter bunts and reaches 1B safely due to unsuccessful attempt on R1 (defense could have gotten B-R).

 

[coachjwb]

Fastpitchdad ... you are correct, the first situation was definitely a FC (it was kind of a test for you!) ... I'm not familiar with the software but is there anything "tricky" about putting it in the app?

SoCal_Dad ... I know my scoring on each of the situations, but will defer to fastpitchdad including the iScore entry.

By the way, I think the main value of this thread is to hopefully help some people better understand scoring rules in general, and a secondary value is how to put it in iScore.

 

[fastpitchdad]

1. R1 on 2B, 0 outs. Batter swings and misses on WP for strike 3 and B-R beats throw to 1B.
* Statistically recorded as a K. (however no put outs or assists)
* on app > Swipe Strike > Safe> WP 3rd Strike > What Happen to Runner at 2nd? > Safe at 3B (I assumes you did not say) Wild Pitch> What happen to Batter ? > safe 1b > Held Up.

2. R1 on 2B, 0 outs. Batter swings and misses on WP for strike 3 and reaches 1B safely due to wild throw from F2 to F3.
* As scorer you have asserted the WP, so on the surface I score same as above, unless? as scorer in our judgement, you really think Batter would have been thrown out with ordinary effort, and that the reach was solely on throwing error by catcher. (visual judgment) If so then you can credit the advance to first by Et2, Still get the WP recorded, the K and now E2t
* on app > Swipe Strike > Safe> WP 3rd Strike > What Happen to Runner at 2nd? > Safe at 3B (I assume again) Wild Pitch> What happen to Batter ? > safe 1b > Erorr> Catcher, Throwing, yes > Done

3. R1 on 1B, 0 outs. Batter bunts and reaches 1B safely due to wild throw from F5 to 1B.
* assuming the batter with no outs and runner on is trying to advance the base runner, she is sac bunting.
* on app > In play > Safe> sac bunt w Error > soft, grounder, placement ,next > touch players involved..? > 3B, e Throwing ,done > What happen to runner at 1st ? > safe, 2b, advance by batter > What happen to batter ? > safe, 1b, Held up>
* Statistically batter credited with a Sac Bunt and 3b with Error

4. R1 on 1B, 0 outs. Batter bunts and reaches 1B safely due to unsuccessful attempt on R1 (defense could have gotten B-R).
* again, assuming the batter with no outs and runner on is trying to advance the base runner, she is sac bunting.
* plus you have made an overriding assertion, that B-R would have been out by ordinary effort had the play gone to first. so you can enter as a sac bunt (or a fielders choice, if you do not think she was bunting to advance the runner)
* on app > in play > Safe , Sac bunt> soft grounder, placement , next > What happen to runner at 1b? > Safe, 2b, advance by batter> What happen to batter ? > Safe, Held Up



Lots of typing,,hope i did not miss a button ..

 

[fastpitchdad]

coachJB, your point of view on the scoring.. ?

 

[coachjwb]

So I think I agree with everyone ... since I'm not familiar with the app, it's a little confusing especially in the last scenario. I am assuming it was a sacrifice also. The batter reached first due to the fielder's choice to try to get the lead runner, but the outcome on the batter's stats is that she is credited with a sacrifice and no at bat, as opposed to a fielder's choice where she would have been charged with an at bat. I am sure SoCal_Dad will weigh back in as well, but great job ... you know your scorekeeping!

 

[SoCal_Dad]

Good job! I'm not familiar with entering plays in iScore, but your directions look like they'd achieve the desired results.

On #2, you caught the conflicting info in my situation - WP vs ROE.

2. R1 on 2B, 0 outs. Batter swings and misses on WP for strike 3 and reaches 1B safely due to wild throw from F2 to F3.
* As scorer you have asserted the WP, so on the surface I score same as above, unless? as scorer in our judgement, you really think Batter would have been thrown out with ordinary effort, and that the reach was solely on throwing error by catcher. (visual judgment) If so then you can credit the advance to first by Et2, Still get the WP recorded, the K and now E2t
* on app > Swipe Strike > Safe> WP 3rd Strike > What Happen to Runner at 2nd? > Safe at 3B (I assume again) Wild Pitch> What happen to Batter ? > safe 1b > Erorr> Catcher, Throwing, yes > Done

My intention was batter reached on error and the "WP" was just to clarify reason for U3K (PB/WP). In this case, whether the WP gets recorded or not depends on whether the runner advanced right away on the WP or on the error (e.g. catcher looked runner back before making bad throw). How do you enter these so the K and error are recorded?

 

[SoCal_Dad]

One thing I frequently see on various automated scoring applications is inaccurate Earned Runs. How does iScore handle them - is it somewhat automated or is it completely driven by how the user enters it?

I see opposite tendencies on Gamechanger and NCAA apps. GC tends to score runs that score after what should have been the 3rd out as earned. NCAA tends to be the opposite.

- B1 reaches on error
- B2 strikes out
- P2 relieves P1 as pitcher
- B3 reaches on FC (R1 out 6-4)
- B4 hits 2-run HR
- B5 grounds out 4-3

How many runs and ER's are recorded for each pitcher?

 

[coachjwb]

I just want to know why they took out P1?!?!

 

[fastpitchdad]

On #2 .... How do you enter these so the K and error are recorded?

The entry sequence provided in scenario #2 will credit the K and the E2t.

 

[fastpitchdad]

One thing I frequently see on various automated scoring applications is inaccurate Earned Runs. How does iScore handle them - is it somewhat automated or is it completely driven by how the user enters it?

I see opposite tendencies on Gamechanger and NCAA apps. GC tends to score runs that score after what should have been the 3rd out as earned. NCAA tends to be the opposite.

Earned runs is tricky. iscore may fall in the middle. It does a pretty good job in its automated calculation, but it is a stat that sometimes needs to be manually adjusted. (There is advance scoring mode option in v4, that provides additional key entry to identify if w/o error would have been safe or out?). I will run through the scenarios in a later post when I have more time. And see how it turns out

Iscore does provide era9 (standard era) as well as ERA#, where you set the number of innings (# = 7 in for example)

 

[SoCal_Dad]

The entry sequence provided in scenario #2 will credit the K and the E2t.

So, it would be something like this and "Swipe Strike" triggers the K - that makes sense. I was concerned the "WP 3rd Strike" triggered the K.

* on app > Swipe Strike > Safe> E2t...

 

[SoCal_Dad]

Earned runs is tricky. iscore may fall in the middle. It does a pretty good job in its automated calculation, but it is a stat that sometimes needa to be manually adjusted. There is advance scoring mode in v4, that provides and additional key entry to identify if w/o error would they have been safe or out. I will run through the scenarios in a later post when I have more time. And see how it turns out

Here are some more scenarios (simplified) to test specific scoring issues:

- B1 triples and scores on PB
- B2 homers

- 2 outs
- B3 reaches on error
- B4 homers

- B1 reaches on error
- B2 reaches on FC (R1 out 6-4)
- B3 homers

- 1 out
- B2 reaches on error
- P2 replaces P1
- B3 flies out
- B4 homers

- B1 singles
- P2 replaces P1
- B2 reaches on FC (R1 out 6-4)
- B3 homers

 

[fastpitchdad]

So, it would be something like this and "Swipe Strike" triggers the K - that makes sense. I was concerned the "WP 3rd Strike" triggered the K.

* on app > Swipe Strike > Safe> E2t...

sorta.. you still have the "Safe> WP 3rd Strike" entry, to advance input screens?(can't skip, and that is good/ok).. later when asked final disposition of batter at First, you add the reach on error (vs held up)..So as i posted before the keystrokes flow as you see the play unfold..

* on app > Swipe Strike > Safe> WP 3rd Strike > What Happen to Runner at 2nd? > Safe at 3B (I assumed) Wild Pitch> What happen to Batter ? > safe 1b > Erorr> Catcher, Throwing, yes > Done

 

[SoCal_Dad]

sorta.. you still have the "Safe> WP 3rd Strike" entry, to advance input screens?(can't skip, and that is good/ok).. later when asked final disposition of batter at First, you add the reach on error (vs held up)..

If no one was on base and B-R doesn't advance past 1B, do you end up with a WP and an error? If so, that isn't right.

This is actually a gray area of the scoring rules. PB/WP is not charged if the B-R is retired, so I've always thought an error while making a play would also nullify the PB/WP. OBR 10.12(e) says not to charge an error on a PB/WP and I've always taken that as what occurred on the pitch rather than on a subsequent play on the B-R. Some people feel the subsequent play wouldn't have been necessary if the WP/PB hadn't occurred, so they only charge an error to account for additional bases advanced. I can see both viewpoints and would like to see an authoritative clarification/ruling on it.

 

[fastpitchdad]

How many runs and ER's are recorded for each pitcher?

I entered the scenarios provided into iScore.. and this is what the program "automatically" generated with respect to Earned Runs (w/o any manual intervention or over ride)

#1
- B1 reaches on error
- B2 strikes out
- P2 relieves P1 as pitcher
- B3 reaches on FC (R1 out 6-4)
- B4 hits 2-run HR
- B5 grounds out 4-3
p1 - no Earned runs , p2 - 2 Earned runs

#2
- B1 triples and scores on PB
- B2 homers
- (B3 K B4 K B5 K)
Two Earned Runs

#3
- 2 outs
- B3 reaches on error
- B4 homers
- (B5 K)
No earned Runs

#4
- B1 reaches on error
- B2 reaches on FC (R1 out 6-4)
- B3 homers
- (B4 K, B5 K)
1 Earned Run

#5
- 1 out
- B2 reaches on error
- P2 replaces P1
- B3 flies out
- B4 homers
- (B5 K)
1 earned Run on P2, 1 unearned run on P1

#6
- B1 singles
- P2 replaces P1
- B2 reaches on FC (R1 out 6-4)
- B3 homers
- (B4 K, B5 K)
1 earned Run on P1 and 1 earned Run on P2,

Feedback welcome (assuming no typos )

 

[fastpitchdad]

If no one was on base and B-R doesn't advance past 1B, do you end up with a WP and an error? If so, that isn't right.

This is actually a gray area of the scoring rules. PB/WP is not charged if the B-R is retired, so I've always thought an error while making a play would also nullify the PB/WP. OBR 10.12(e) says not to charge an error on a PB/WP and I've always taken that as what occurred on the pitch rather than on a subsequent play on the B-R. Some people feel the subsequent play wouldn't have been necessary if the WP/PB hadn't occurred, so they only charge an error to account for additional bases advanced. I can see both viewpoints and would like to see an authoritative clarification/ruling on it.

I don't believe, i ever said "If no one was on you would end up with a WP and Error on the stats". I agree, If no runners advance a base on a WP or PB, .. for the stat book purposes the WP/PB does not show up. (i will add, this is often a topic of discussion with some coaches..who rightfully want to track "actual PB and actual WP", for development purposes and learning. .(not "score book PB and WP" ). that pitcher was wild today.. how many did she throw wild? , or that catcher was off her game today.. how many PB?

(this is a bit theoretical, since no 'real play to reference', but if you change the parameters the stats can change, in the initial example i scored the runner advanced from 2nd base to 3rd and i presumed it was on the wild Pitch and the runner advanced to first on the E. If the advance was on the throwing error, cab entered it just as easy as advance from 2nd to 3rd on E2t.. but not seeing the play, assumed WP not E for 2d to 3rd. .. also to show the flexibility of the app)

 

[SoCal_Dad]

I entered the scenarios provided into iScore.. and this is what the program "automatically" generated with respect to Earned Runs (w/o any manual intervention or over ride) ? ?

#1
- B1 reaches on error
- B2 strikes out
- P2 relieves P1 as pitcher
- B3 reaches on FC (R1 out 6-4)
- B4 hits 2-run HR
- B5 grounds out 4-3
p1 ? no Earned runs , p2 ? 2 Earned runs

I would have 1 unearned run for P1 and 1 ER for P2. What's odd is I added the other situations to determine the cause of any discrepancy - and they don't help because I agree with all the other results.

P1 should be charged with a run, just like in #6. Since B3 reached on FC, B3 replaces B1 as P1's responsibility. The run should be unearned for 2 reasons. First, B3 inherits B1's status as an unearned run a la #4. Second, the run scored after what should have been the 3rd out of the inning for P1 a la #3 and #5.

#2: Scoring on PB is initially unearned, but HR makes it ER because it would have scored without the PB.

#3: No earned runs because they scored after what should have been the 3rd out of the inning.

#4: Only 1 ER because B2 inherited B1's status as an unearned run.

#5: 1 unearned run for P1 because B2 ROE and scored after what should have been 3rd out. P2's run is earned because they entered with 1 out and don't benefit from the error before they entered.

#6: 1 ER for P1 because B2 replaced B1 on FC and became his responsibility. P2 is only charged with B3's run.