Free substiitutions in a showcase-defense only or pinch runners too?

[cz fastpitch fan]

A slower runner draws a walk and goes to 1B. The coach then sends a runner in to run for her...not a sub, but another player in the game. The original batter was not the pitcher or the catcher but their first baseman.
I question the ump about this and the other coach cites the rules say "Free substitution" and that meant he could put any one of his players in for any other player at any given time. I ask the umpire if that means I can bat my best hitter for all 9 players, since it is "free substitution". The other coach goes on to say that this is a showcase, and that he wants to showcase his player's speed.

I had never heard of this before...I think it's a stretch of an interpretation of the rule. I'm sure the TD meant free DEFENSIVE substitutions, so you can rotate players in various positions for showcase reasons without "penalty".
To essentially use a pinch runner, in order to gain advantage in the game.....!!

What the?????

Is this standard MO in showcases or was this guy nuts? The ump allowed it. On the other hand, when I asked another ump on a subsequent game, he said that he would not allow that, that free substitution means free defensive rotations.

What gives? A coach & ump that just don't know the deal, eh?

 

[SOFTBALLS14]

Yup see it all the time!! Some coaches do it and try and get away with it!
Especially at Showcases... or in their case WINcases!! COM'on man!
I just do what you did go to the umpire ... If he cant get it right I would have gone to TD at the end of game so for the next ones every coach is on the same page and to have him help let all the umps know the rules!
Its free substitution on most but that's for defensive side and subs for pitchers and catchers ....NOT 1st base !!
Once again a coach playing for WINcase and not Showcase ...

So next time just make sure you throw her out at second!!

 

[oiler_pride]

In a true showcase there aren't any rules on substitution. I have seen the same batter hit twice in 1 inning because a college coach wanted to see her hit again. We often put the same runner on base in multiple innings to showcase her speed and base running abilities in front of college coaches. Because of these rules, this is why many showcases don't post scores.

 

[coachjwb]

CZ .... this is an entirely different situation than your other one .... while for all we know the coach in question may have been trying to take advantage of the showcase rules (were there any college coaches actually watching at the time?), to oiler pride's point, this does and should happen in true showcases.

 

[SOFTBALLS14]

Then why have anyone else play ...... Its also about showing off all the team not just one player! I get the request thing.
But don't use that as an excuse to just Run your fastest all game long. I see coaches do this a lot also... Its great you have a fast runner get it but don't shortchange the others!!
Sometimes its about showing how well a little slower runner knows how to do smart base running.
Remember it a showcase for the TEAM.
Even the slower players need to find a College to play for!!

 

[HITTER23]

Jeff, exactly what i was thinking...

it brings up the question who was really the coach gung ho for a win, when you complain when they took a slower player out for a pinch runner. Using your thinking, you should have liked the idea you got to show your defensive abilities against a faster runner. Honestly, it just sounds like you are butthurt cause you lost....

 

[dannyboy]

Who gives a sh_t? It is a showcase. What if the player is coming off an injury? BTW, this is fall ball.

 

[cz fastpitch fan]

These games aren't as much about winning or losing in my opinion. I simply felt the other coach was trying to manipulate the rules to try to help his team score more runs.
In drop dead tourneys or showcases, the wins & losses don't matter. If we lose every game and my girls get noticed then mission accomplished and that means we are playing against good competition. If we win all of our games, then we should play up.
Do I think he did that because a college coach asked to see that girl run? I doubt it. He did it to put a faster runner in the game. Period. In the end it didn't matter because we got out of that inning without giving up any runs anyway.

 

[Davemy]

I learn something everyday on this forum.

 

[coachjwb]

Dave ... this is one of the things I learned on the Forum as well a few years back!

Here's the thing on this one ... if you play in a true showcase, expect that things like this are going to happen because they can and they should ... you have to ignore why it happens when it does even if it might be for the wrong reason ... it's allowed ... in a true showcase, free substitution is free substitution ...

Hopefully coaches going to their first true showcases will read this thread and understand for the future and not make a scene and embarrass themselves or their teams ...

On the other hand, the coach who does do it for the wrong reason should be ashamed of themselves ...

 

[oiler_pride]

Sac Bunting in showcases is another thing that can cause heartache. Typically sac bunting is a no no in a true showcase game. However after getting burned late in a game by a coach in NJ last yr, I always ask the opposing coach prior to the start how they want to play the game? Some laugh and say no bunting while others say lets play it straight up..

 

[FastBat]

A slower runner draws a walk and goes to 1B. The coach then sends a runner in to run for her...not a sub, but another player in the game. The original batter was not the pitcher or the catcher but their first baseman.
I question the ump about this and the other coach cites the rules say "Free substitution" and that meant he could put any one of his players in for any other player at any given time. I ask the umpire if that means I can bat my best hitter for all 9 players, since it is "free substitution". The other coach goes on to say that this is a showcase, and that he wants to showcase his player's speed.

This is probably why they hesitate to post scores at showcases, just my guess!

 

[FastBat]

...just run your fastest all game long. I see coaches do this a lot also... Its great you have a fast runner get it but don't shortchange the others!!
Sometimes its about showing how well a little slower runner knows how to do smart base running.

Agree, I see a lot of what are considered "slower" players that are very "smart" baserunners. That's a talent, just like being fast is.

 

[tshepherd]

I do it all the time in showcases and as said before it's to showcase the runner and YOUR catcher and it doesn't matter if you win or lose. Side note your complaining about a pinch runner what about a suicide squeeze ? LMAO Let your girls show there talents that's what its all about and relax.

 

[okiedad1961]

I do believe there are teams/orgs that are new to the showcasing game.And will do anything to make a name for themselves ,by using any means possible to win.Id say let's see how the girls react to situational bunting,sacrifices,baserunning and how the defense reacts to it ,should be a good measure of a player for coach's to see.Must admit it can show weaknesses in players.

 

[WWolff]

A lot of showcases we attend allow free substitution and some teams will have the same girl run over and over. Another thing is batting the same 2 or 3 girls again and again, don't like it but it happens.

While we were in California two years ago we were playing the OC Batbusters-Smith in one of our Showcase games, they batted their two best hitters in the last three innings because it was 0-0 in the 5th. I asked one of the coaches afterwards why they did that, and at first he said they were being looked at. I knew they were already verballed to Arizona and Oregon, and when I said that he confessed that they would be laughed out of Cali if they lost to a team from the Midwest. Did we like it hell no, but it happens and will happen again. We walked away with their respect and our pride!

 

[Captain_Thunder]

A lot of showcases we attend allow free substitution and some teams will have the same girl run over and over. Another thing is batting the same 2 or 3 girls again and again, don't like it but it happens.

While we were in California two years ago we were playing the OC Batbusters-Smith in one of our Showcase games, they batted their two best hitters in the last three innings because it was 0-0 in the 5th. I asked one of the coaches afterwards why they did that, and at first he said they were being looked at. I knew they were already verballed to Arizona and Oregon, and when I said that he confessed that they would be laughed out of Cali if they lost to a team from the Midwest. Did we like it hell no, but it happens and will happen again. We walked away with their respect and our pride!

So Warren is telling us - that the best organizations in the country PLAY TO WIN!!!
This topic seems so 2 Faced.....I heard the same arguments last fall when the Local Showcases were going on - then in the very next week or two - we had the teams traveling to the bigger Showcases around the country posting every game score they Won..........When a team/org goes elsewhere & Wins - Time to Brag......when a team loses, whether area, regional, or National Showcase - they are just there to play all their girls.....Everyone seems to want it both ways - depending on how it fits their agenda at the time.....
This IS about the girls - but the adults need to do some figuring out....lol

 

[Stretch]

This IS about the girls - but the adults need to do some figuring out....lol

Everyone says this all the time, but it couldn't be further from the truth. When was the last time you saw a post on this or any other forum that starts " I talked to my DD last night and her thoughts were ........." or "I talked to my team last night and their thoughts on this showcase was ........ " or even "We discussed our plan for the upcoming showcase with the team and parents and decided to ........"

Its about chest thumping 95% of the time, and it's not the players doing the thumping. JMHO


Ready...............Aim...............Fire !

 

[DoubleTheFun]

A lot of showcases we attend allow free substitution and some teams will have the same girl run over and over. Another thing is batting the same 2 or 3 girls again and again, don't like it but it happens.

While we were in California two years ago we were playing the OC Batbusters-Smith in one of our Showcase games, they batted their two best hitters in the last three innings because it was 0-0 in the 5th. I asked one of the coaches afterwards why they did that, and at first he said they were being looked at. I knew they were already verballed to Arizona and Oregon, and when I said that he confessed that they would be laughed out of Cali if they lost to a team from the Midwest. Did we like it hell no, but it happens and will happen again. We walked away with their respect and our pride!

Interesting to hear that one of the most recognizable names in the game nationally kind of bent the rules so as not to be defeated by an Ohio team at a showcase where wins, losses, and scores supposedly don't matter. Maybe it was just the coach's ego and some of those Cali teams have big egos to feed for sure. On the flipside, I suppose there might have been some publicity if the Ohio team defeated the Cali team...I know I always like hearing when an Ohio team has success against a west coast team.

So back on topic...
Seems to me if the rules allow for free substitutions, you should just call it a scrimmage, and allow for the same number of ABs per team per inning before switching sides. I wouldn't really consider that a game anymore with so many open ended situations. But wait a minute, would college coaches come watch scrimmages?, maybe, I've seen it, but not in the same numbers as showcases. Would teams pay big money to attend scrimmages?, maybe, but I think it is very doubtful. So whoever coined the term "Showcase" probably has an advanced degree in marketing so they could charge the maximum price for an 75-80 minute scrimmage. (This is the Rant Section after all).

What would you do to improve the rules, keep the games on time, showcase the talent, and make the games matter? Seems like we are only a few rule tweaks away... careful though cause if the games suddenly mattered again, we would have to post all the results. Whoa, look out!

 

[tjsmize3]

So back on topic...
Seems to me if the rules allow for free substitutions, you should just call it a scrimmage, and allow for the same number of ABs per team per inning before switching sides. I wouldn't really consider that a game anymore with so many open ended situations. But wait a minute, would college coaches come watch scrimmages?, maybe, I've seen it, but not in the same numbers as showcases. Would teams pay big money to attend scrimmages?, maybe, but I think it is very doubtful. So whoever coined the term "Showcase" probably has an advanced degree in marketing so they could charge the maximum price for an 75-80 minute scrimmage. (This is the Rant Section after all).
What would you do to improve the rules, keep the games on time, showcase the talent, and make the games matter? Seems like we are only a few rule tweaks away... careful though cause if the games suddenly mattered again, we would have to post all the results. Whoa, look out!

Good stuff DTW, that's pretty insightful! In all seriousness though I'm pretty sure Warren was referring to the kind of showcases where there are college coaches and people watching... not the kind it sounds like you must have experienced. At most of those showcases not a lot of tweaks are necessary since the system has been working pretty well, they're well attended and games are still somehow intense and seem to matter. Never too late to see one in person though as I think Stingrays, DeMarini, Diamond 9, etc... all sell tickets to the public. Could be a real eye opener.