Is this the beginning of end of PGF and the rise of USSSA?

okiedad1961

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Noticed this week that there's been some tourneys in Ohio leaving PGF sanction for Usssa.Is this due to the poor organisation at the highest levels nationally in the PGF,poor website information and the stay to play demands of Tourney directors.My thoughts are with the changes being made w ASA and there close ties w USA Softball and there tourney formats as well as local bigs not really competing well nationally at PGF events why bother.Alot of our Ohio girls are now getting looks nationally without that exposure so why do it?
 

Mdfio

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Thats a great question!! My opinion is this — about 3 years ago PGF came into the Ohio Market and I believe due to PGF and those promoting it - it did wonders for the Ohio Brand. I personally still feel PGF is one of the top brands out there no doubt. But if the new change to Ohio with all of the USSSA has the same effect as the PGF did, well I am all for it!

As for the Ohioians not competing well - I believe those teams that went to PGF Nationals (Huntington Beach) did very well, I believe the Hawks 02 team even placed in the top 10 out there. I could be wrong but it was close.

The only constant is change!
 

Coach Tony

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Good question. I am not privy to what is going on with PGF in Ohio. There are some pretty obvious changes going on there that I don't have insight on. But on a national level, I can say that I think softball coming back to the Olympics and ASA's marketing transition to USA Softball (along with the strengthening of the Junior Olympic team program) was a huge blow to PGF - one that I think will eat away PGF's power as the next Olympics draw near.

I really believe that travel softball overall is at a tipping point. We went from the "Win at all costs" era to the "Get recruited at all costs" era. I can't put my finger on it but I really feel like we are going to see a pretty substantial change in the structure of things. Stay tuned.
 
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Coach Tony

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ANECDOTE - Okiedad mentions the PGF web site - In my day job, I work with web developers from around the world. I used to use the first iteration of the PGF web site as my #1 example of bad web site design - on exactly what NOT to do with a web site. To a person, each web developer I showed the site to agreed that the site was astonishingly bad... horrible on so many levels: page design, usability, source code, security vulnerabilities...you name it. It was perhaps the most illogical web site I had ever used, and at the time, you were forced to use it to register, order insurance, background checks, etc. It was maddening!! It has since been changed several times and seems to be improved.
 

SOFTBALLS14

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I feel they overpriced themselves out of the market. From fees to all the other stuff involved in playing the game.
You could still do all the same things at the other org. tourneys & still get seen by college coaches. While doing it cheaper and just as effective. ......JMO :cool:
 

wow

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I think its very EZ to speculate on the changes. The fact is these sanctioning bodies have little impact on the overall game. Like stated earlier, nothing is as constant as change. Most teams play events based on three factors. Location, price, and teams in attendance. later on in the recruiting game its really about where the college coaches are. Everyone loves the drama of why the change? It does not matter if the event went from PGF to USSSA or PONY.
 

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IMO PGF only cares about PGF Qualifiers, Showcase Events, and PGF Nationals and they do these very very well. It is strong at the top level nationally and in some locations very strong throughout the age groups. The influx of PGF locally, IMO, was more TDs trying to capitalize on the "new brand" than it was PGF looking expand.

I do not think PGF is going anywhere Nationally. Showcases are very very well attended by college coaches, qualifiers are well attended, good coach showing, and competitive (older age groups). PGF Nationals is a great event, super competitive, and very very well attended by coaches.
 

okiedad1961

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Just wondering if the brand PGF Ohio was losing its appeal and wasn't drawing teams and coach's as it once was.I'm sure PGF will survive nationally and maybe they don't care about anything but there nationals,there certainlly more content on the web when there going on.My experience with a regional wasn't good a lot of teams of lessor quality getting in due to there orgs hosting area events.I'm sure I'm not the only one whoes noticed that kind of thing going on.Maybe another reason teams are changing there plans.
 

FastBat

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I was concerned about my daughter's team not playing PGF much, if any last year. I think they are playing the same or about the same this summer, it could be none, I'm not sure. But, I was told, since most of our players would prefer to play (if they continue to play) in this general region, it didn't make sense to go to Huntington Beach to play and as parents our dollars would be better spent just playing "east of the Mississippi" or on this side of the US. Why play PGF if the end result will be playing in Huntington Beach in July/August? I wouldn't be overly excited about my daughter playing there, but that's just my personal feeling.

Also, with ASA rotating Nationals in this area often or atleast having ASA regional nationals in our backyard every year, it just makes sense to play ASA or another good option would be to give USSSA a try. I also feel like ASA is better priced, PGF you are just paying for the name.
 

WWolff

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Why Change?



There are many reasons for the change. I still feel like PGF Premier is a great option for any teams wanting to spend the money to go to California and compete against the Cali teams and we did with the Outlaws with top 10 finish, and several top 20 finishes.

As far as events and appeal, I can only speak for mine. We will continue to run high-level events with great college coach turn out and awesome competition! PGF did push expansion as all sanctioning bodies do and selected people they felt were best to push the brand forward at the time. This was solely my decision and was not asked to leave. ( I figured I would put that out there before the next rumor starts. lol)



Why did these tournaments leave and come to USSSA



1) Inexpensive team registration: Only $40 per team. Which saves teams money. (ASA you have to sanction and carry their insurance to play \nationally) PGF Futures $50 plus every player has to pay to age verification fee.

PGF now enforcing this year that any team playing in any futures events, must sanction futures to play the event, and sanction premier to play premier.

2) USSSA does not require you to buy their insurance

3) Great national events in Great locations. (Vierra Florida, Ocean City Maryland)

4) USSSA site is so much easier to navigate and keeps your team info for next season, making it even easier to register your team

5) The people involved. I personally just spent two days with Jeremy McDowel and Chris Florence. When I walked away, I realized how much they care about the sport, the girls, and development of the game at every level. Not to mention Jami Lobpries and
Jenny Gladding ( http://usaeliteselect.com/usaes/our-team ) who have played this game at the highest level and wanted to share their passion and experience with the young ladies.







USA Elite Select



1) You can basically repeat all the things 1-5

2) Offers the teams the opportunity to play some of the best in the country while staying on this side of the country at great venues.

3) World Fastpitch Championships 12U, 14U, 16U, and 18U Central Location Kansas City

4) 2018 Amazing team list of teams that have committed CLICK HERE

4) Futures World Fastpitch Championships 9U, 10U, 11U, 13U Amazing facility possibly the best in the country. Great competition. Space Coast Complex, Viera Fl.



With so many questions and speculation I thought I could answer some of the questions, and please don't hesitate to give me a call with any further questions you may have. 216-704-9908

I also encourage you to take a look at their websites below and see what else they have to offer



Links to National sites (Individual sites are above in blue)



USSSA Fastpitch



USA Elite Select



God Bless and Merry Christmas to you all!!

Warren


 
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Very interesting to see how far USSSA has come since 1994 when I ran the first ever USSSA fast pitch tournament here in Beavercreek, Ohio with 9 teams. At that time USSSA was slow pitch only and they did have a category called modified slow pitch that allowed the pitchers to throw with little or no arc so the District USSSA commissioner sanctioned the event in that category. I do not run tournaments anymore--65 of them were enough---had lots of good support from folks like Joe Abraham, Chris Miner, da Boss, Johnny Clark, Jean, etc.

bob
 

JoeA1010

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You ran great tournaments, Bob! Always among my favorite.
 

okiedad1961

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As Gatercoach said :Why wouldn't a business person or Brand capitalize on a new market that could bring in money from tourneys and help draw coach's to the events.As in any business model you certianlly don't want to gouge the customers in the beginning or provide a lousy product (website)till the customer thinks its not worth it .I will be surprised to see if PGF remains here .Warren and Stingrays have put on some pretty good events and I haven't all ways agreed with the Invite processes or value for the dollar but hopfully USA softball or USSSA can draw talent and Coach's to events here in Ohio.
 

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I hope this change will infuse some changes with USSSA in western PA also and possibly attract more Ohio Teams to visit PA...There are at least 2-3 Western PA tournaments that attract a ton of teams.
 

Mdfio

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Again I feel there is a level of play for every team out there, as well at regionals or nationals!

ASA/USA this year in Washington 16u
ASA Eastern - Not sure where
PGF Regionals - Chicago, Nashville and maybe Florida (not sure) National in Cali
USSSA/USA Select Elite - Kansas City, Florida and regionals are close to Ohio


Just depends what you want! In my years of coaching I plan my schedule around our goal for nationals, as I guess most do!
 

CARDS

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I remember when PGF came to Ohio. ASA/USSSA back then had some issues and honestly opened the door for another sanctioning body.
Back then it seemed like PGF was working to get as many events as they could to be sanctioned PGF. Even events that were less than A level and that kind of went against the business model.

Its been 4 years since we played but has PGF got any better with getting umpires?
They were using a mix of ASA/USSSA listing of legal/illegal bats do they have their own list now?

The PGF website was weak but so was ASAs a few years back. USSSA has a good website and outside of Ohio USSSA was pretty strong.

When we were playing Ohio USSSA teams included Lasers, Doom, Static, OFC Heat, Buckey Heat, etc. Back then when you played a USSSA event points and tournament results were posted by the Monday after the event they always had decent nationals as well.
The USSSA parks back then also did a better job of having fields with 200ft fencing proper bases and pitching distances so they have the base & history and could be in a place to squeeze PGF.
If ASA/USA can get back to their glory days they can be the big dog "once again" as long as they continue to improve their product.
 
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WWolff

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I remember when PGF came to Ohio. ASA/USSSA back then had some issues and honestly opened the door for another sanctioning body.
Back then it seemed like PGF was working to get as many events as they could to be sanctioned PGF. Even events that were less than A level and that kind of went against the business model.

Outlaws Summer Invitational, Stingrays, and Fall Brawl are some the best events in the state, and for that matter midwest for competition and exposure. Not to mention two other great exposure events America's Premier Fall Showcase, and Great Lakes.
We never had that business model in Ohio we had a dozen or so select events with experienced tournament directors. (Meaning select trusted well-run events)
All sanctioning bodies try to expand their brand.


Its been 4 years since we played but has PGF got any better with getting umpires?
They were using a mix of ASA/USSSA listing of legal/illegal bats do they have their own list now?

Not sure what events but our Ohio umpires came from ASA none from USSSA, and they all came with me and my daughter to USSSA / USA Elite Select to give us a strong/experienced umpire base in the state.

The PGF website was weak but so was ASAs a few years back. USSSA has a good website and outside of Ohio USSSA was pretty strong.

Agree one of the reasons for the switch. PGF site was difficult to navigate at best.


USSSA is very strong in the Midwest, South, and East Coast. Emma and I are excited to have this opportunity to help grow the brand in Ohio and Pennsylvania.



When we were playing Ohio USSSA teams included Lasers, Doom, Static, OFC Heat, Buckey Heat, etc. Back then when you played a USSSA event points and tournament results were posted by the Monday after the event they always had decent nationals as well.
The USSSA parks back then also did a better job of having fields with 200ft fencing proper bases and pitching distances so they have the base & history and could be in a place to squeeze PGF.
If ASA/USA can get back to their glory days they can be the big dog "once again" as long as they continue to improve their product.

USSSA has a very good website and scheduling program built into their main site, and I know my daughter will try to make sure every USSSA tournament in her region Northern Ohio is kept up to date. As I know Mike does in the Central/South.
 
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Bob_Himmelein

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Just looking at website while waiting for family to get here, As many of you know I hosted or acted as UIC at almost all PGF events in Ohio, the only exception was Stingrays. I posted some information on why I made the switch on 12/17/2017 . As most of you know, all the tournaments I am involved in (May Mayhem, Memorial Classic, Maple Leaf East, Maple Leaf West and Cinderella Classic) are now USSSA events. Also, I spoke with two other TD's who I have worked closely with on three tournaments and we agreed to make a switch to some other format. The only other person running PGF was Warren ( and he spoke for himself above) for the last couple of years and I had the sense the time was right to make a move. I will add to the listed below. The eight tournaments I mentioned would have gone independent if we did not go USSSA. I spoke with some of the people from USSSA and found them to be high caliber and open. As such I agreed to work with them as both an unpaid State/Regional coordinator & UIC (really not sure of title, but don't care). They wanted input, which was not something I felt in working with other sanctioning bodies in the past. I found issues can be resolved simply and easily, often with a couple of hours or less. No real knock on PGF, but I hate the three hour time difference in trying to deal with folks in CA.
PGF, does seems to be the high level "Cadillac" in many ways and I recognize that most of the OFC followers seem to be focused on the Elite level teams and nationals. My personal goals have always been to run tournaments which are open to all and focused on growth of the sport overall. PGF really does not focus on these levels in my opinion and while this is not bad, it is not something I wanted to continue to be involved in. I also believe FP softball is the best game (if for no other reason, than no 39 pick-offs to 1B like in Baseball every game). There are many other reasons as well. Overall, my approach is geared to having as many players as possible involved with "team sports" at a competitive level they are functional at. The Class system does give some teams opportunities to compete at levels they are comfortable at. The Class C and Rec All Star classes have some built in protections, which are another subject.

Below are the comments as posted on 12/17/2017
" Personally, I made the switch because;
Low Sanction fee (Flat rate of $40.00 ($60 for Elite Teams), NO EXTRA costs for background checks, players or other costs. No requirement to buy USSSA insurance USSSA does offer insurance, but it is not required to play in these events, You register as a coach, keep your same ID number from year to year and just edit/update your contacts information and team rosters. You can enter your roster, use the format to keep stats. These are visible to your players and families. The format is designed to not reveal too much personal information.
The opportunities for post season events, opening for qualifying teams, top go to any area of the country, rather than just regional. USSSA allows you to register as "odd Number" teams (9U, 11U etc) and the end of year event for these groups will be held in Dayton, OH. USSSA defines how the roster must be made up to qualify for these programs.
As a TD, I found the website to be a valuable piece of the puzzle, offering the ability to post schedules and brackets with no additional cost as many commercial programs have. It is simple enough that even I can do it!I believe our first responsibility is to provide reasonable cost events, which promote the game, sportsmanship and enjoyment for all. USSSA seems to be making great efforts to meet this ideal.
When you sanction you can register for tournaments and once you put in your information, you are done for the year. You can make roster changes yourself if needed. This reduces the need to bring rosters and extra paperwork.
Hope this information is helpful and look forward to seeing you this year. As you can see, there are already more USSSA tournaments in NE Ohio than ever and more will be added in the future.
Signing up for tournaments is very simple.
As a TD, I found the website to be a valuable piece of the puzzle, offering the ability to post schedules and brackets with no additional cost as many commercial programs have. It is simple enough that even I can do it!
I believe our first responsibility is to provide reasonable cost events, which promote the game, sportsmanship and enjoyment for all. USSSA seems to be making great efforts to meet this ideal.
When you sanction you can register for tournaments and once you put in your information, you are done for the year. You can make roster changes yourself if needed. This reduces the need to bring rosters and extra paperwork.
Hope this information is helpful and look forward to seeing you this year. As you can see, there are already more USSSA tournaments in NE Ohio than ever and more will be added in the future.
Signing up for tournaments is very simple.

Family pulling in! Have a great Christmas and my best wishes for the New Year.

Bob H
 

okiedad1961

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Thanks Warren and Bob for carrying the PGF torch as long as you did,It certianlly was beneficial to bringing a higher level of competition within Ohio and drawing teams regionally to make them a place to be for coach's to see talent at your Invite events.
I guess my next question would be how are we going to continue to do this without the PGF brand and purely on your reputations of having teams that compete well nationally and doing a great job running events?
Since personally I'm at the end of my daughter's prime recruitment age and still want the best for Ohio's future D1-D3 recruits I'm hoping we can continue to make Ohio's events the place to be.
Another question where will Ohio's premier orgs take there teams if they think PGF is the only road for exposure?There's certainly events within a 5 hr window that will host PGF events but as I've seen in the past will lesser teams from Ohio without Premier org status be shut out without being seen competing well at Ohio PGF events?Will other orgs that have taken advantage of PGFs status to run Invite events to draw teams nationally to there events lose there appeal?I'm hoping there can be a focus on getting the very best of Ohio and up and coming teams within Ohio rather than trying to make the event look more desirable by bringing in teams from 15 states and having our girls passed over for looks by colleges.
Just some thoughts?
Merry Christmas
 

WWolff

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Thanks Warren and Bob for carrying the PGF torch as long as you did,It certianlly was beneficial to bringing a higher level of competition within Ohio and drawing teams regionally to make them a place to be for coach's to see talent at your Invite events.
I guess my next question would be how are we going to continue to do this without the PGF brand and purely on your reputations of having teams that compete well nationally and doing a great job running events?
Since personally I'm at the end of my daughter's prime recruitment age and still want the best for Ohio's future D1-D3 recruits I'm hoping we can continue to make Ohio's events the place to be.
Another question where will Ohio's premier orgs take there teams if they think PGF is the only road for exposure?There's certainly events within a 5 hr window that will host PGF events but as I've seen in the past will lesser teams from Ohio without Premier org status be shut out without being seen competing well at Ohio PGF events?Will other orgs that have taken advantage of PGFs status to run Invite events to draw teams nationally to there events lose there appeal?I'm hoping there can be a focus on getting the very best of Ohio and up and coming teams within Ohio rather than trying to make the event look more desirable by bringing in teams from 15 states and having our girls passed over for looks by colleges.
Just some thoughts?
Merry Christmas

Your welcome, but I will disagree with as far as the brand people teams and coaches come to the event based on the event, not the sanctioning body. So the events that were strong in the past and will continue to be strong!

1) As far as Ohio's premier org as you call them. There are not many that truly play the premier events consistently the Outlaws do, the lasers did the first couple years and the Hawks have dabbled the last couple years.
2) I can only speak for our events these teams come from out of town to play the Outlaws and play in our events because they know that they are going to see great competition while maximizing their exposure amongst college coaches.
3) I do not believe teams get into an event because they played a sanctioning bodies schedule it is done based on winning and who those wins are against. (And unfortunately sometimes who you know )
4) I always have welcomed the Ohio teams, but some do not choose to step out of their comfort zone, and that is their choice. Not one that we encourage but understand why they may choose to do so.

Hope this helped in spite of my poor grammar :)
 
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