No time left...Rules for STALLING

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Lester,

Couldn't agree more. We (the players and coaches) take away more from this game than just wins and losses (I hope). Win with class, lose with class, just don't try to lose very often.

What is interesting is that I had a discussion with my players last week at practice that this is the last year (13U) we will really be concerned with wins. After this, the emphasis is on recruiting and making sure our players are seen by whatever college coach may be coming to see them in whatever spot they need to be seen. Then, time limits really won't matter.

 

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Stalling ****s!!!! But the reality is, we all generally know who the blatant abusers are going into the game...We start checking the clock in the 3rd inning if we are down, just so we can prepare -

The part that really gets to me is when they do it on offense - 3rd base coach walks down the line to talk to every batter, who takes her time getting into the box, yadah, yadah. Some teams start stalling the moment they have the lead - they justify it to their girls (and maybe even themselves) by saying "we need to get ready for nationals...this is how it's played".

But, in the end, it's part of the game - Until the rules change to shut it down we just have to accept it as strategy....I guess

 

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Dont agree with this statement at all, lots of very good competitive games are decided at the end and by one or two runs. Thats why you have either time limit or innings, etc....as well part of your earlier statement below....

- In every sport that utilizes a clock teams have developed strategies to manage the clock in their favor. Should we outlaw spiking the ball or running out of bounds in football, icing the puck in hockey or the four-corner offense in basketball?

Doesnt hold water because lots of those sports come down to the wire.... your comments are contradictory relative to timelines and similarities.

So, your points are:

- Lot's of competetive softball games are decided at the end.

- Analogies to other sports that use a clock are invalid because those other sports often are decided at the end.

Huh? Talk about contradictory!

 

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DD's team had a game a few years back were the umpire decided he wanted another inning for the other team. I'm not saying our girls were running up to bat but by no means were they stalling. One of our girls hit a foul ball and naturally she started running to first until she heard the call. She sprinted back to the box like she was trying to beat out a bunt because I honestly believe he would have let the other team pitch and called it a strike as he had done that to one of our previous batters when she didn't sprint up to the box.

My biggest problem with this guy is: don't wait till the last inning to start telling the girls to hurry. How about if you do that from the first pitch to the last might get a few more innings that way.

 

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So, what you are saying is that games are never decided in the late innings?.

Nope, not saying that at all. Anyone that's spent any amount of time around this game knows that would be a stupid statement.

What I'm saying is that if you agree to play games under a time limit (and by registering your team and paying your entry fee you have entered into that agreement), then you have to realize that the clock will not always work out in your favor. Such is the nature of the beast. If it is a close game and time is running out, one team or the other will find themselves on the short end of the stick. Whatever your team did in the first, say, 74 minutes of the game is going to effect which end of that stick you're on in that final minute. If you had scored more/allowed fewer runs up to that point then you wouldn't be in a position where the clock might bite you in the butt.

I'm not particularly a fan of timed (finish the inning) games and I really hate drop-dead time limits. I understand the reason for having them and why they are used.

There are already rules in the book that cover: The number of charged conferences a team can have, both on offense and defense; The time the pitcher has to deliver the ball; The time a batter has to get set in the box; Batters calling time while the pitcher is in a position to pitch; Batters stepping out of the box between pitches; The number or warm-up tosses a pitcher can take between innings; The amount of time allowed between innings, and; The penalties for employing tactics designed to hasten or delay the game.

If the umpire is enforcing all of those (as well he should be) you're going to get the maximum amount of playing time for your game. Still, if you're using a clock, at some point that clock is going to run out. Even if all of those "time saving" measures have been followed, it's still going to be a toss up whether the final few minutes of the game will work to a team's advantage or disadvantage.

Several times on this forum I have proposed a timed game format that would virtually eliminate the problems associated with stalling.

Instead of a 75 minute (or whatever) "finish the inning" time limit, dial the clock back to 60 minutes. When the clock expires, you finish the inning you are in. Then, you play one more inning.

Under this format, the incentive to stall is virtually eliminated. A team cannot stall to sit on a lead in hopes of the clock running out. This format ensures that each team will have another at-bat and that at-bat cannot be deprived to them by stalling.

 

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I like that idea Bretman as well.

But, in the end... I dislike time limits. Maybe at 10u... but after that... it's not needed. I would rather see 12u and 10u go to 6 innings... which is still more than most get in any tournament

 

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I had a 16u coach tell me one Fall, that they had NEVER gotten 7 innings in all year prior to a tournament of mine.

After last year's 8u Rec World Series... I was SHOCKED how fast those games actually go.

 

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Look, we have all discussed a million times why there has to be time limits in tournaments, but the fact remains is that this game was built not to have them, and I don't buy any comparisons to other games where there is a clock. The comparison is not to the fact that other games have a clock too so **** it up ... the comparison would be to taking a basketball or football game and cutting out the 4th quarter altogether or maybe even stopping the game in the middle of the 3rd quarter. And the major issue is not even that there are too many chances to abuse it (which there are), but the fact that in some instances we have shortened the game to a point to where it becomes a different game, and where some batters may only get up one time in a game, which is utterly ridiculous.

 

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I only like time limits so that it guarantees us so many games for our money...(nature of the beast). I'd rather have my teams face several different types of "play" or variations that only other teams can provide. We must be aggressive enough to get runs every inning and then take the time element away. Now, many games are not that way and they run to the buzzer. I have pondered Bretman's idea and that is growing me. Not a bad idea since the clock will not be going away. Allows the game to "play out" and still get to the 4-6 games per weekend. The game count is important to the player developement vs me counting up the win-loss record. I'm not about that... One could argue that you can get great learning from 3 very solid games vs 6 sloppy games. Ok, ok...I see all sides but for my age group rep's are very important, of course, quality rep's...

 

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Several times on this forum I have proposed a timed game format that would virtually eliminate the problems associated with stalling.

Instead of a 75 minute (or whatever) "finish the inning" time limit, dial the clock back to 60 minutes. When the clock expires, you finish the inning you are in. Then, you play one more inning.

Under this format, the incentive to stall is virtually eliminated. A team cannot stall to sit on a lead in hopes of the clock running out. This format ensures that each team will have another at-bat and that at-bat cannot be deprived to them by stalling.

I've not seen this idea before but it's absolutely brilliant. I wonder if anyone will run with it?

 

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1. I like Bretman's idea about the "one more inning" a great deal, and agree it would help with stalling tactics.
2. I have said this before, I don't like timed games, but if we do have time limits, then clock strategy is part of the game.
3. I am totally against "stalling" however. Multiple pitcher changes (for no apparent reaason like one getting shelled, etc), pinch runners for pinch runners, multiple untied shoes, etc are "bush league" IMO.
4. On the othe hand, I believe there is nothing wrong with taking my 1 offensive time out or telling my batters to "work the count." If there is 1 minute left in a game you better believe I will tell my batters to not be in a hurry.

 

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I've not seen this idea before but it's absolutely brilliant. I wonder if anyone will run with it?

I agree, great idea. Would be nice to see someone give it a shot for tournament and see how it works out.

 

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The key to reducing the effect or nearly eliminating time limits is find a handful more fields for any given tourney. One extra field per each 7 fields you already have, which would translate for most tournies into one extra 4 field complex at most. Go to 90-95 minute time limits (no new inning starts) and 1 +45 between games on the schedule. Most games can be played to 7 innings in 90 minutes. Some will run early and some will run long, but enough to even it out most of the time.

For instance, using a 75 or 80 min limit and 1 1/2 hr between games, you can play 8 games per day per field starting at 8 AM and last game starting at 6:30. Got to 90 or 95 min and 1+45 between games, you can play 7 games on the same field with the last also starting at 6:30. Not a major difference IMO, but a big difference in the number of 7 inning games.

Sure seems like there are a lot of small parks or schools around not big enough for a tournament, but with 1-4 fields suitable to be an overflow location close enough to the main park to be easily used. Yes, some extra expense, but would you rather pay $375 for 75 min games or $400 for 90 min games all else being equal?

FWIW, I still say deliberately stalling is a bush tactic. The spirit of the rule is not to add a timing element to the game, it's merely there to squeeze more games into a tournament.

 

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Stalling sukks, play the game!!!

 

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On the flip side, it also is upsetting when your pitcher gets a hit in the late innings, and you call time for a courtesy runner and people start accusing you of stalling...even when you've been using a courtesy runner all game!

 

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The key to getting in seven innings in a timed game is to hustle on and off the field each and every inning. When you get to the dugout, the first batter grabs her bat and is standing next to the batter's box when the pitcher is done with her warm-ups.

This takes everyone on that field to make it happen. The coaches, the players, and the umpires. At our tournament, the umpires are instructed to keep reminding the girls to hustle on and off the field. The coaches are told in the instructions to hustle on and off the field.

Hustle, Hustle, Hustle!!!

At the older age groups, you will see pitchers take one, maybe two warm-ups and then they are ready. Do pitchers really need five warm-up pitches? Think about it. At 10U and 12U, for a 7 inning game, that's 35 more pitches to her arm. Hmmmmm. So if you throw her two games a day, you have had her throw almost a complete 3rd game just in warm-ups, and that's not even counting the warm-up pitches you had her throwing before the game.

 

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I agree, great idea. Would be nice to see someone give it a shot for tournament and see how it works out.

I think we just might try this idea at our tourny. I like it as well.

 

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Twinsdad brings to light an issue I have with teams and has been a pet peeve of mine for years. The time wasted between innings as the girls seem to have a contest to see who will be the last one to leave the dugout. My Lord that drives me insane!!!

The team I worked with last year was the worst I’ve ever had the privilege. I would ask them if they knew the score and did they know they were behind? They always would answer with a resounding “YES.” “Then why won’t you hurry up and take the field so we can get back in here and try to get back in this game?” They acted like I had insulted them.

Why do outfielders that just stood in one place for 3 batters (no, I’m not happy about that either) seem to think they can walk back to the dugout after the inning is complete? Why is it the girl that’s up next in the line up the last one to the dugout to get ready to hit? Why can’t girls figure out how to double knot their shoe laces so we don’t need to call time out 10 times in a game? Why can’t they know where their glove is so they can RUN out on the field after the 3rd out? Why do they believe every inning that a coach should find them a ball to take out on the field to warm up? Why can’t girls already have a water bottle before moving into the dugout instead of blocking the entrance yelling at mom or dad to go to the concession stand? Why won’t the girls drink water we have in the cooler in the dugout instead of “needing” a Gatorade instead?

The above paragraph is only a hand full of things that take time away from the game. While I agree with Bretman AND some of the others making valid points about time restrictions, I can find enough issues in most games that would get most to the 7th inning in the allotted 75 minutes.

I realize age groups make a difference and understand why we have time restrictions. Tournament directors are NOT going to run their show without time limits with the exception of a championship game once they know how things will end in regards to the time of day on Sunday and the outlook for weather in the upcoming hours. Tourneys are run to make money for something. Anyone that hasn’t figured it out needs their head dunked in water!

I’ve never encouraged or condoned a stall but just the opposite. We’ve rushed them on the field and told the pitcher one pitch and throw it down while always keeping the same attitude and courtesy for the opposing team if we were ahead. All of us deserve a chance to get as many innings in as we can in the allotted time

Let’s teach the girls to have some urgency throughout the course of the game and I believe we’ll all be a lot happier with the results.

 

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A few comments...

- Every other sanctioning body already has rules in place that prescribe penalties- up to and including a forfeit- for delaying the game.

- In every sport that utilizes a clock teams have developed strategies to manage the clock in their favor. Should we outlaw spiking the ball or running out of bounds in football, icing the puck in hockey or the four-corner offense in basketball?

- With respect to the amount of time consumed, an otherwise legal conference, substitution or time out- all of which the rules permit- will eat up the same amount of time whether it is taken in the first inning or the last.

- As far as "letting the players decide the game on the field"...they did- during the first hour-plus the game was played. If your team is in a position where a minute or two one way or the other is going to seal your defeat, perhaps you didn't play well enough the entire rest of the game. If you had, then you wouldn't be in this position (a position that had to realize was a possibility when you agreed to play games under a timed format).

I agree!!! It's like blaming the umpires for your loss due to a bad call. I tell the kids that play for me, if it comes down to a few bad calls - then we didn't deserve the win anyway. (lol... Doesn't mean I won't argue a call - just that I won't let my team use that as an excuse for the loss)

 

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Instead of a 75 minute (or whatever) "finish the inning" time limit, dial the clock back to 60 minutes. When the clock expires, you finish the inning you are in. Then, you play one more inning.

Under this format, the incentive to stall is virtually eliminated. A team cannot stall to sit on a lead in hopes of the clock running out. This format ensures that each team will have another at-bat and that at-bat cannot be deprived to them by stalling.

AAAaHhhhh, I like this!!! Is this something a TD can just decide to implement? I would love to see this tried.