This has got to stop...

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I've discussed this at length over the course of 3-4 years with Bretman and others and I think the rule needs to be a point of emphasis with blue ever year until they get it right. Too often baserunners are plowing the catcher. Thankfully I have not seen it happen recently. Just as frequent is the big momma catcher blocking home way before the impending throw home. Saw it at 18u at lasers this weekend , catcher sucessfully blocked home but she started blocking waaaaay before the ball arrived.

 

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Saw it at 18u at lasers this weekend , catcher sucessfully blocked home but she started blocking waaaaay before the ball arrived.

But was the runner impeded by the catcher's position way before the ball arrived?

Keep in mind that obstruction requires two elements: One, a defensive player blocking a base without possession of the ball, and; Two, that the runner is actually impeded in some way.

It's entirely possible for a fielder to be blocking a base before the runner even gets there. If the fielder's position does not cause the runner to slow down, change course, deviate or not reach the base, then the runner was not obstructed.

Yes, it can be a very fine line for an umpire to judge. Just blocking a base in and of itself is not obstruction. Blocking the base AND impeding the runner is.

 

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had it happen to our team 16u (catcher)last year westerville warcat tournament umpire did nothing.... i always thought and see in rule book (i believe) softball is a non contact sport,u must avoid contact at all times..starting to see this as a trend...this was an umpire that everyone knows on here..

Earlier in this thread I posted that I was not at the Westerville tournament last year. Another OFC'er sent a PM to me to tell me that I officiated one of his games in that tornament.

I keep a pretty good record of my games, so I found last year's calendar and, sure enough, I was there. For some reason I was thinking that I missed it last year, but that was the year before. I've umpired over 100 in the span since last year and, after awhile, they all start to kind of run together!

I believe that I now recall the details behind the play in question:

The runner was coming home in an attempt to score. The catcher was set up off the plate to receive the throw. The runner was coming across the plate standing, which is perfectly legal.

Upon receiving the ball, the catcher then suddenly and unavoidably moved into the runner's path, resulting in a collision.

This is NOT a rule violation on the part of either the runner or the defender. When a defensive player suddenly and unavoidably moves into the path of an otherwise legally advancing runner, the runner is not obligated to avoid contact that is unavoidable. In this case, the collision was initiated by the catcher's actions, not the runner's.

This is a perfect example of what I posted earlier about all contact not being illegal contact. Both players were perfectly within their rights to be doing what they were doing. Plays like this can result in a pretty spectacular collision, but it is a collision without penalty.

Note that the ASA rule says a runner is out if she remains upright and crashes into a fielder in possession of the ball. That requires the fielder to be stationary and about to apply a tag. When the fielder moves into the runner's path such that contact cannot be avoided, this rule does not apply.

This play came up for me twice last year- the other was in the GAPPS tournament. Both times the catcher got the worse end of the train wreck and her coaches and fans were screaming for a call. But there is no call to be made here, other than "safe" or "out" on the possible tag play.

 

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My dd has been part of this at least a couple of times. At 14U ASA/USA Nat's last year, dd was scoring from first on a ball hit to right, the throw comes in and pulls the catcher up the 3rd base line about 4' from home plate, ball and dd arrive at the same time. Too far away to slide and already in foul territory and too late for dd to avoid the collission, umpire called safe on the collission and then called safe when dd crawled over home plate. When it comes to girls, every collision looks dirty, but sometimes it is unavoidable. Unless a kid comes in with shoulder down or elbows up and with no ejection on the play described in this post; I will assume the cacther was pulled up the line and into the runner, otherwise an ejection should of been issued for intentional.
To the Pittsburgh Road Runners catcher from last season, I hope you fully recovered and didn't break your wrist and hopefully see everyone again this year in Chattanooga at the 16 ASA/USA.

 

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DD is a catcher and through a couple different camps, she was taught to basically try to be as low to the ground as possible. That is not always possible due to the throw, but stay low, field the throw, push the leg into the path, and sweep for the tag.

By staying low, the runner really can't get down that low if the intent is to try to have a collision.

Absolutely correct. The catcher needs to be lower than the runner. There are two ways to handle this situation for the catcher. One is upon contact, fall while spinning away so it is more of a deflection than a collision. This is very hard to time but it does minimize the force of the contact. The other option is for the catcher, being lower than the runner, fires upward at about a 30 degree angle toward the runner a split-second before impact....much like a vicious 2 point takle by a linebacker. This gets the runners feet off the ground reducing driving force and sends a message to the players of the other team. Sometimes ya do what you gotta do......

The worst thing a catcher can do is to be tall and back on their heels and get trucked over head-on.

Len

 

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My oldest catches. What i've told her, and this may be wrong, but a girl has never collided with her. I've told her you see someone lower the shoulder, you raise the glove (since they have no intentions of sliding why tag the legs or feet when head and shoulders are coming in first), bend the elbow, may I need to say more? It may be wrong, but it sends a signal. Plus, I'm looking at the safety, if a catcher is trying to tag the legs, and she plows into her, more than likely her head is down and in a more defenseless position. But, I truly don't have to worry about it now since she loves the outfield. I also will not allow her to run over a catcher.

We tend think it is the coaches or parents who teaches these girls to do this, sometimes it's the girls. They are just as competitive, especially at the older ages. They are wanting to show their toughness if they know a college scout is looking at them and in willing to do what it takes to win.

 

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I too question why the umpires don't eject players more often for that mtter even warn them... I played in a tournament this year (very promenent tournament) and the batter throws the bat and hits my catcher in the arm. So I jump too my feet to see if my cathcer is alright and thank goodness she was. I ask the umpire if he is going to warn her for throwing the bat and hitting my catcher, he says NO! At that point I got a little exsited. When I asked the umpire why he is not going to warn her he says he didn't see it. To that I responded becuase you were ducking out of the way of the bat! which he was. That's when the field umpire threatens to eject me. I calm down and we go on to the next pitch. The batter throws the bat and hits my catcher again and still nothing out of the umpire. At this point I thought my head was going to explode becuase now my catcher is hurt. Now the entire crowd is yelling at the umpire so he calls a conference with the field up and comes back and finally warns the batter. The batter is now got two strikes on her but my catcher is not focused on catching the ball she's worried about getting hit with the bat a third straight time. Next pitch we strike out the batter...

There are some really good umpires out there and there are some really not so good ones also. Players should never be put into harms way to play this game and for umpires to fail and uphold this basic concept is inexcusable...

I never saw the opposing coach say anthing or the batter even appolgize for what she did. What has happened to good sportsmanship? or just plain common courtesy? As competetive as we can all be this is still just a game.

 

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Baseball coaches + Baseball umpires = softball games played and called like baseball games.

Report the situation to the UIC at the tournament, I'm glad the umpire said to you "I might have blown it" but he "might" have just said that to get you to go away. If he really feels sorry then he shouldn't mind getting a chewing from his boss about it and he better be ready to make the right call the next time.

16U ASA Nationals in Texas last year a "baseball" coach was winning a game when one of his players got ejected by a "softball" umpire for malicious contact on a similar play and team had to forfeit due to having no legal substitutes able to take her place (was late in the game all subs burned). That is how you weed this out of the game with real consequences.

Not every coach who coached baseball and switched to softball is like this and neither is every umpire that does both, but I think people around our sport can picture those that I am describing.

 

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Any time a coach tolerates bad behavior from his players...it is taught.

 

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I too question why the umpires don't eject players more often for that mtter even warn them... I played in a tournament this year (very promenent tournament) and the batter throws the bat and hits my catcher in the arm. So I jump too my feet to see if my cathcer is alright and thank goodness she was. I ask the umpire if he is going to warn her for throwing the bat and hitting my catcher, he says NO!

What sanctioning body were you playing under?

Are you aware that most have NO PENALTY associated with a batter carelessly discarding her bat? Sure, an umpire might say something to the batter, just as a courtesy to the players. But it would be a "hollow warning" in that most rule sets don't require any warning to be given, or prescribe any penalty if the batter was previously warned.

Most rule sets DO NOT have a rule that requires a warning here, DO NOT access an out for throwing the bat and DO NOT mandate an ejection for doing this.

You quite possibly almost got yourself ejected over arguing a non-existent rule.

 

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Baseball coaches + Baseball umpires = softball games played and called like baseball games.

From Little League to NCAA, ALL amateur baseball codes prohibit intentionally crashing into defensive players.

Unless you're playing softball with Major League coaches and umpires, there's no reason that a play like this should be treated any differently. You would still have an out and an ejected player if this play was "called like a baseball game".

 

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It was a USSSA torunament. I agree there is no rule for throwing the bat but when it hits a player wouldn't that fall under unsportman like conduct? I can't believe any organization would allow such a thing.

 

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It was a USSSA torunament. I agree there is no rule for throwing the bat but when it hits a player wouldn't that fall under unsportman like conduct? I can't believe any organization would allow such a thing.

Knowing that this was a USSSA game totally changes things!

U-Trip closely follows the same rules as high school softball. Carelessly discarding the bat does require a team warning. Another violation by that same team results in the batter being restricted to the bench (not ejected, which may carry additional penalties).

Off the top of my head, USSSA and high school may be the only associations with this rule.

Generally, unsportmanlike conduct only applies to acts that are deliberate and intentional, designed to injure another player or gain an advantage by ignoring a rule. This would include intentionally throwing a bat (or any other piece of equipment), as in anger, but does not cover accidentally or carelessly discarded bats.

 

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What sanctioning body were you playing under?

Are you aware that most have NO PENALTY associated with a batter carelessly discarding her bat? Sure, an umpire might say something to the batter, just as a courtesy to the players. But it would be a "hollow warning" in that most rule sets don't require any warning to be given, or prescribe any penalty if the batter was previously warned.

Most rule sets DO NOT have a rule that requires a warning here, DO NOT access an out for throwing the bat and DO NOT mandate an ejection for doing this.

You quite possibly almost got yourself ejected over arguing a non-existent rule.

Interesting Bretman--we had a batter, who I know did not throw the bat intentionally, got warned the first time, and on the second, after a base hit, was ejected, but we were allowed to substitute a runner for her.

 

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Interesting Bretman--we had a batter, who I know did not throw the bat intentionally, got warned the first time, and on the second, after a base hit, was ejected, but we were allowed to substitute a runner for her.

"Throwing the bat" is one of those things where you have a mix of different rules for different sanctioning bodies. As if that's not confusing enough, many, many local leagues will write their own rules to cover this that directly conflict with the standard rules.

Add on top of that that "throwing the bat is an out" seems to be one of the most common rule myths in baseball and softball. It's something we all probably heard at one time or another on the playground as kids and, from there, this rule myth has taken on a life of its own.

I touched on the USSSA, high school and ASA differences on this rule up above. This is one where the correct call depends on which sanctioning body you're playing for and, quite possibly, if your league or tournament has written a special rule to cover this.

 

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to answer an early question, the runner was called out because she failed to get to home plate. She did a normal slide , catcher blocked home , foot never got to the plate. But my gripe is the catcher started blocking BEFORE recieving the ball. (and SGS's coach properly questioned the call but didn't get anywhere) The whole rule needs changed IMO --NO BLOCKING OF ANY BASE --this isn't football , it's asking too much of blue to watch the catch,slide,tag, and still determine the split second that an incoming throw is close enough in flight to be called "impending" or whatever the word is they use. Softball is a beautiful game with grace , speed , power at the plate and in the circle , but the rule should be written to discourage collisions betweeen players . you can think or explain the current rule is good enough but the injuries at home keep mounting up. MD

 

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I think the rules are already written to discourage collisions.

They already say that runners can't remain on their feet and crash into a fielder. They already prohibit flagrant or malicious contact. They already have rules covering obstruction and interference.

If the players are coached in these rules, understand them and follow them, then collisions would be kept at a minimum.

to answer an early question, the runner was called out because she failed to get to home plate. She did a normal slide , catcher blocked home , foot never got to the plate.

If the runner did a "normal slide" that doesn't sound like her basepath was altered, which leads me to believe that maybe she wasn't obstructed.

Forget about the throw being on the way, or in the air, or "impending". Most codes removed that qualifier from their rules years ago. Here's what the umpire needs to consider...

- Did the catcher's positioning prior to receiving the ball cause the runner to alter her path to the base? Did she have to slow down, stop, go around, through or over the catcher to reach the plate BEFORE the catcher had possession of the ball?

Going by your description of a "normal slide" I would have to say she did not.

- Did the runner in any way contact the catcher BEFORE the catcher had the ball?

You left out that detail. If she did, then maybe you do have obstruction.

- Did the runner contact the catcher AFTER the catcher had the ball?

If the contact was after the ball was received, then it can't possibly be obstruction.

 

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Had a play this year in HS ball that had its fair share of controversy and yelling from the other teams coaches regarding this issue,
Girl at second ,batter hits a line shot to right field that isnt played very well,runner is being waved home my dd who is catching is about 2ft in front of home plate down the third base line,but standing to the right of the foul line about foot or so,outfielder hits cut off as the runner is rounding 3rd,ball comes in to her mitt in time for her to see the runner "lowering the shoulder" dd steps to her right tags the runner on the hip who is now off balance because she was confused that she wasnt play football and runner up-ends herself as she crosses home plate and out.The coaches and crowd go crazy for few minutes as the runner gathers herself and demands that the umpire kick my dd out of the game for excessive force ,Blue very calmly states that the runner was her own worst enemy and resumes play.....

 

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Good to hear about an umpire getting one right for a change!

I probably would have added insult to injury by warning the runner that if she lowers her shoulder again, and does manage to plow the catcher, that she would be getting herself tossed.

 

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Did the catcher's positioning prior to receiving the ball cause the runner to alter her path to the base? Did she have to slow down, stop, go around, through or over the catcher to reach the plate BEFORE the catcher had possession of the ball?

Yes I did leave that out detail. The runner slide into the catchers knee pads , she would have had to alter her path to touch the plate. this obstruction was before the ball had arrived. I still don't think a defensive player should be able to obstruct the base whether they have the ball or not.