Time limits and "gamesmanship"

[coachjwb]

I know there's a thread every so often on this and many other threads that mention it, but I wanted to resurrect the topic. Like many other people, I hate that our game that was not meant to have time limits now too frequently has them ... to the point that I think some people forget a game is supposed to be 7 innings. I'm not going to get into all of the reasons why we are stuck with time limits in tournaments, because they're fairly obvious and it's not going to change anytime soon. What I specifically wanted to do here is list out some different "strategies" coaches sometimes employ in dealing with time limits, and what people think is "OK" and what isn't. I personally think that coaches have some responsibility to maintain the integrity of the game as well as to teach their players something about it, but there are a couple of things I will admit I've done in the past (well maybe just one thing) .... I know there are other coaches out there who believe they can and should do everything they can to take advantage of the rules and help their team win games. I am going to throw out a few that come to mind ... feel free to add others. Also feel free to differentiate whether you think it makes a difference if it's a pool or elimination game. I will offer my opinions later ...

1) Intentionally walk batters with time running down
2) Call timeouts to talk with the pitcher that you wouldn't ordinarily call
3) Ask the catcher or other infielder to go talk with the pitcher
4) Have a player call timeout to tie their shoes, adjust their equipment, or check a "phantom" injury
5) Call time to talk with the umpires about something that you wouldn't ordinarily
6) Tell the hitters to take pitches until they get a strike or two
7) Have players make outs on purpose so as to start a new inning before time runs out
8) Make a lineup change that will take time to do and report to the ump and scorekeepers
9) Have the catcher walk out and look back the runners every pitch (that she wouldn't ordinarily do)

Should be interesting ...

 

[lewam3]

Just make sure you have more runs than the opposing team, that way tactics 1-9 are irrelevant.

 

[HITTER23]

Jeff, shouldnt this be in the bush league forum?

 

[Mad Hornet]

You forgot to mention plunking the last batter after time has run out. Similar to the intentional walk but gets the job done faster and eliminates the possibility of losing on a passed ball or delayed steal. Not something I would teach, but it's out there...

 

[Converse Kid]

Don't forget about the girls who step oot of the box and take 5 to 7 practice swings between every pitch.

 

[snoman76]

#7 doesn't make sense to me... Why would you wanna make outs? If you're behind then you would want to hit and if you're ahead you want to hit to burn time... In drop dead revert back if the home team takes the lead they have completed their at bat so the inning would count if time ended.... Am I missing something?

I have no problem with numbers 1 or 6.

 

[Hilliarddad3]

"If we can't win in regulation, then we don't deserve to win" once I was told that, it made the games more enjoyable rather than worrying about a clock.......

 

[coachjwb]

Snoman ... re: #7 ... had this happen to us at Dayton a few years back and unfortunately it worked for the other team ... they were the home team and down like 3-4 runs with 2 outs in the 5th or 6th and the bottom of the order up ... time was about to run out and the format was no inning after the time limit ... so they figured they had a better chance to score their 3-4 runs with a whole new inning and the top of the order ... so the hitter took 3 wild swings and struck out, the new inning starts, and the time runs out but the inning has to be finished. Again, it worked for them, they won (yeah, shame on us for giving it up). I always wondered though how the batter who was told to struck out felt ...

 

[coachjwb]

Chris ... yeah, my personal opinion is that they're all bush league but I know others don't ... regardless of the format and the situation (i.e., pool or elimination) ... with the possible exception of #6 which is the one thing I did do on quite a few occasions ...

Tony ... scary about the intentional hitting of the batter ... aside from the fact that I strongly believe no adult coach should ever instruct a youth player to ever hit another youth player, it would seem to be risky anyhow in the event the pitcher misses their target or the batter gets out of the way ...

 

[The Dude]

#6 is fine, the rest are not. Time limits blow. Less games more innings please. Our girls are not prepared to play an entire seven inning game. It shows when you play teams from states where they are ready to play a full game. Especially hurts our pitchers.

 

[cobb_of_fury]

I know there's a thread every so often on this and many other threads that mention it, but I wanted to resurrect the topic. Like many other people, I hate that our game that was not meant to have time limits now too frequently has them ... to the point that I think some people forget a game is supposed to be 7 innings. I'm not going to get into all of the reasons why we are stuck with time limits in tournaments, because they're fairly obvious and it's not going to change anytime soon. What I specifically wanted to do here is list out some different "strategies" coaches sometimes employ in dealing with time limits, and what people think is "OK" and what isn't. I personally think that coaches have some responsibility to maintain the integrity of the game as well as to teach their players something about it, but there are a couple of things I will admit I've done in the past (well maybe just one thing) .... I know there are other coaches out there who believe they can and should do everything they can to take advantage of the rules and help their team win games. I am going to throw out a few that come to mind ... feel free to add others. Also feel free to differentiate whether you think it makes a difference if it's a pool or elimination game. I will offer my opinions later ...

1) Intentionally walk batters with time running down
2) Call timeouts to talk with the pitcher that you wouldn't ordinarily call
3) Ask the catcher or other infielder to go talk with the pitcher
4) Have a player call timeout to tie their shoes, adjust their equipment, or check a "phantom" injury
5) Call time to talk with the umpires about something that you wouldn't ordinarily
6) Tell the hitters to take pitches until they get a strike or two
7) Have players make outs on purpose so as to start a new inning before time runs out
8) Make a lineup change that will take time to do and report to the ump and scorekeepers
9) Have the catcher walk out and look back the runners every pitch (that she wouldn't ordinarily do)

Should be interesting ...

- I think all of these EXCEPT #6 are a bit Bush League, I have no problem with taking pitches and making the pitcher work - This should be done (Depending on the pitcher) even early in the game.

All of the other (if they would not happen in an untimed game) are a bit crappy -

I especialy hate #7 because thats saying to that batter " We don't trust you to start a ralley, we want the top of the line up to do that and were willing to take the bat out of your hand to do it"

 

[Pacerdad57]

Have to agree with cobb. All except #6 are questionable to me.
I also agree with the earlier statement about deserving the win, play your game, play hard and whoever wins that's it.
if you want to grow as a team, don't manipulate.rules.just because you can. As for taking pitches (#6), that's always been a big part of baseball/softball in my opinion. Nothing wrong with making the pitcher work, why would you want your girls.swinging at junk?
make the pitcher throw to ya.

 

[coachjwb]

For the most part, everyone is agreeing so far, but I know there are a ton of coaches out there who would consider and have done many of the other items listed to win a game ... I would say at least of 8 of the 9 have been by coaches opposing my team at some point or another. The question is will they post here and make their case? If they won't, why not?

 

[joboo1drew]

Snoman ... re: #7 ... had this happen to us at Dayton a few years back and unfortunately it worked for the other team ... they were the home team and down like 3-4 runs with 2 outs in the 5th or 6th and the bottom of the order up ... time was about to run out and the format was no inning after the time limit ... so they figured they had a better chance to score their 3-4 runs with a whole new inning and the top of the order ... so the hitter took 3 wild swings and struck out, the new inning starts, and the time runs out but the inning has to be finished. Again, it worked for them, they won (yeah, shame on us for giving it up). I always wondered though how the batter who was told to struck out felt ...

lol. Forgot about that. Good times. It was very effective for their team.

 

[DoubleTheFun]

For the most part, everyone is agreeing so far, but I know there are a ton of coaches out there who would consider and have done many of the other items listed to win a game ... I would say at least of 8 of the 9 have been by coaches opposing my team at some point or another. The question is will they post here and make their case? If they won't, why not?

I would like to hear from some college coaches (Joe, where are you?) about what level of clock management strategies are acceptable at the collegiate level. I think we all know what we have seen from some "Bush League" Coaches (LOL)
Here's my opinion, #3 and # 6 are ordinary.
#3: Your catcher might be setting up a batter with a pitch call or trying to allow the pitcher to regain composure (All part of the game provided it is not overtly done to kill the clock).
#6: It is called plate discipline and also an acceptable clock management strategy since you can only watch so many of them go by before you are rung up. Also there are ways for the pitcher to combat this if it is overt.
The rest are questionable in my mind and should be immediately recognized by the better umps who can stop the clock if they judge it to be excessive.

 

[Mike_Craig_-_Ohio USSSA]

I'll play "Devils Advocate" here for input on something that I have not seen often other than at the NSA WS. NSA's old Indiana state director used to run her events with this rule: If there is a time out/conference in the last 10 minutes, the officials would stop the timer until it was over. NSA ran the last 2 WS under that rule and I hardly seen any coach call time late into a game other than for "real" strategy (game or inning ending type scenarios).

Curious what thoughts or even creative ways this could be "beaten".

 

[Heavy Hitter]

7 is a hard one but I don’t have a big issue with it. I don't like the idea of telling the kid to strikeout but have seen where a coach has told the runner to leave early. Is it ideal no, but we are also playing time limit games which isn't ideal either. So they play an extra inning. Who gains the advantage? I would say neither, they both get to hit again and they both have to play defense.

 

[wvanalmsick]

For the most part, everyone is agreeing so far, but I know there are a ton of coaches out there who would consider and have done many of the other items listed to win a game ... I would say at least of 8 of the 9 have been by coaches opposing my team at some point or another. The question is will they post here and make their case? If they won't, why not?

When DD was in the younger age groups, Every time that her coaches tried a delay tactic, it would backfire so they just gave it up.

 

[Bink44]

I have used #7 and here is the scenario...we were at ASA/USA 10U Nationals...its a pool play game for seeding...we have 2 outs and a runner at 1st...we were down 11-8. I had my runner lead off early so new inning could start. My reasoning was that we had a better chance to score 3 or 4 runs with 3 outs to play with...rather then with only 1 out the inning before. My intentions were true to my girls in giving them extra opportunities to win!!! Sad to say this SoCal team scored 10 runs in the top of the inning to our 1 run...thus we lost 21-9,,,lol

 

[BulldawgsDirector]

Bink I don't see anything at all wrong with that. You play to win the game within the agreed upon rules.
I had a girl swing and miss the 3rd strike with 2 outs and a minute left down by 3 and it paid off in the 7th for the 4 run walk off.
I will say last season we probably played 7 innings 25 out of 40 games but that was at 18U and we gave up an average of 2 runs a game while not setting the world on fire at 5 rpg scored. Every game we played in Chattanooga was 7 innings and I didn't witness any obvious stalling. Of course we will take a strike in the 6th with a lead to help the clock tic but none of that conference/shoe tying bs. Non showcase scenarios of course