Tough decision...what would you have done?

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and....if the parent does not make the right decision, it is on the coach to make it.... regardless of what the parent says. She's under the coach's supervision, he is also responsible. In our program, if you don't like our mandated facemask rule, then go play with another program. In 5 years, that has not happened, not even almost.

I agree the coach has the right to make a decision on this, as coaches do on any lineup decision. And, as you say, the parents can always take their child elsewhere. This is why I'm almost always opposed to mandates from ASA or any other governing body. Give us options and let us choose where we want to take our business. That's the free market at work and it winnows out the ineffective and rewards good ideas and businesses.

In the situation OnTheBucket was faced with, he had to make a quick decision and erred on the side of safety. I can't fault that. Certainly he knew the girl's mom was fine with her pitching just by implication, but his softball sense said this was dangerous and he made the call. And the mom can then switch her daughter to another team at the first availability opportunity, if she wishes.

 

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I agree the coach has the right to make a decision on this, as coaches do on any lineup decision. And, as you say, the parents can always take their child elsewhere. This is why I'm almost always opposed to mandates from ASA or any other governing body. Give us options and let us choose where we want to take our business. That's the free market at work and it winnows out the ineffective and rewards good ideas and businesses.

In the situation OnTheBucket was faced with, he had to make a quick decision and erred on the side of safety. I can't fault that. Certainly he knew the girl's mom was fine with her pitching just by implication, but his softball sense said this was dangerous and he made the call. And the mom can then switch her daughter to another team at the first availability opportunity, if she wishes.

He erred on the side of safety which might be fine if he does it with everyone. Is not every pitcher without a mask at risk? Not hard to prove they are if you reported the injuries that HAVE happened to many two armed girls. Then shouldn't he require EVERY pitcher to wear one? I don't see the case to single out this girl. I wouldn't want to be on his end of legal action by this family or the feds with violating some ADA act.

Great to meet you this weekend Joe!

 

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I agree and kinda disagree with all the satements. A girl with a handicap that prevents her from protecting herself should have to wear a mask in my opinion. My daughter wears one along with the rest of her team. I know the mom wants her daughter to be able to do everything that the other girls do but at some point she needs to be more concerned about the safety of her daughter. By rule, she should've played, but i agree with your decision.

 

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I think you over stepped your authority and you sold the coach, parent and the kid short. Here she is not letting her handicap, handicap her, and a couple of well intentioned umps think they know what is best for her. They feel in their 5 mins of experience with this kid they know better then her coach and mom. lol

 

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I think you over stepped your authority and you sold the coach, parent and the kid short. Here she is not letting her handicap, handicap her, and a couple of well intentioned umps think they know what is best for her. They feel in their 5 mins of experience with this kid they know better then her coach and mom. lol

Dang...where's the Like button. LOL


HERE it is:

 

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I think you over stepped your authority and you sold the coach, parent and the kid short. Here she is not letting her handicap, handicap her, and a couple of well intentioned umps think they know what is best for her. They feel in their 5 mins of experience with this kid they know better then her coach and mom. lol

Oh dang, I somehow forgot OnTheBucket was an ump and not the coach, my bad. I implore coaches to read rulebooks and all of that, and then I don't read this thread carefully enough myself.

Yeah, I agree he probably overstepped his authority, although I would have no problem with him having a conversation with the coach, especially at the Rec level. I still find it hard to fault someone for making a snap decision and erring on the side of safety.

 

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I can't speak for Rec Ball as I umpire HS, the NFHS Rule 3-2-13
NOTE:
The Note was revised to clarify that state associations may grant exceptions to NFHS playing rules for participants with disabilities, special needs and/or extenuating circumstances.

Rationale: Clarifies that an individual state association may authorize exceptions to the playing rules to provide reasonable accommodations to individual participants with disabilities and/or special needs or other unique and extenuating circumstances. Such exceptions are not considered rules modifications since they are not general in nature; rather, they are limited to the circumstances of specific individual participants.

So put a Face Mask on her if this is your concern and let her play, its not worth all the Legal issues that can stem from this for you or the Rec Association.


FASTPITCH! Anything else, And you're playing too SLOW!

 

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I can't speak for Rec Ball as I umpire HS, the NFHS Rule 3-2-13
NOTE:
The Note was revised to clarify that state associations may grant exceptions to NFHS playing rules for participants with disabilities, special needs and/or extenuating circumstances.

Rationale: Clarifies that an individual state association may authorize exceptions to the playing rules to provide reasonable accommodations to individual participants with disabilities and/or special needs or other unique and extenuating circumstances. Such exceptions are not considered rules modifications since they are not general in nature; rather, they are limited to the circumstances of specific individual participants.

So put a Face Mask on her if this is your concern and let her play, its not worth all the Legal issues that can stem from this for you or the Rec Association.


FASTPITCH! Anything else, And you're playing too SLOW!

Missed the call Blue. Girl refused to wear a mask, ump's wouldn't let her play. Would you?

 

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Okay, I'm going to light fire to this thread, just for the sake of getting everyone fired up.

If the rules say let her play, that doesn't stop an umpire from calling time, pull out his/her cell phone, and call the authorities for child endangerment.

There ya go, there's a solution.

Why not do it? No matter what the ump does, he is hosed.

 

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Ok, has every one's blood pressure receded?

I would not call the authorities. But hey, I know there is someone out there that would.....come on, I know you are out there.

This is not a mask issue, it is about a player, IMHO, that will not be able to defend herself with the equipment required by the existing rules (her glove).

Hind sight is, of course, 20/20. I would have a talk with the coach and since it is a rec league, then someone from the Rec Board was probably there and I might have included them in the discussion. I might have even ask the coach/Board Member for a written release from liability.

But the bottom line is......if you did nothing about it and she got hurt, could you sleep that night????

 

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I haven't seen this situation come up, but as an umpire you hate to be put in the position where you feel player safety is compromised and there is nothing in the rules against it. I call a lot of rec games and see a lot of infielders and pitchers of all ages that could not stop a line shot. I wish we would just get to the point of mandating masks for at least pitchers and both corners.

 

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I played mens softball for many years with and against a pitcher like this. He lost his left hand in a fire at a young age. He adapted and was so quick getting his glove on you never would have known he only had 1 hand. He was also a very good hitter. He would swing with 1 hand and burn the right field line up every time.

 

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Ok, has every one's blood pressure receded?

I would not call the authorities. But hey, I know there is someone out there that would.....come on, I know you are out there.

This is not a mask issue, it is about a player, IMHO, that will not be able to defend herself with the equipment required by the existing rules (her glove).

Hind sight is, of course, 20/20. I would have a talk with the coach and since it is a rec league, then someone from the Rec Board was probably there and I might have included them in the discussion. I might have even ask the coach/Board Member for a written release from liability.

But the bottom line is......if you did nothing about it and she got hurt, could you sleep that night????

You could really be opening a can of worms here. Remember the conversations about masks on batting helmets?? People were in an uproar. The defensive mask?? Even worse!!! I took alot of heat for being one of the first to mandate our players to wear facemask at 1st, 3rd and pitcher up through 14u. Some of that heat came from some of our own coaches and board members. When the buck stopped at my desk, I did want to sleep at night so I did issue the mandate.
Joe had the logical answer. Do what you have to do in your programs.
As far as umpires go, I think that there are probably ADA rules apply. I would issue the recommendation to the coach, the the player and maybe even go to the bleachers and recommend it to the parent to any player who demonstrates that they may not be able to protect themselves regardless of the reason (handicap or not). Even none of them took the recommendation, I think the liability would not fall on the guy in Blue.

 

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I haven't seen this situation come up, but as an umpire you hate to be put in the position where you feel player safety is compromised and there is nothing in the rules against it. I call a lot of rec games and see a lot of infielders and pitchers of all ages that could not stop a line shot. I wish we would just get to the point of mandating masks for at least pitchers and both corners.

We are at that point... it's up to each program to mandate it.,.,,, or up to the parent to mandate it. I had a Dad bring his daughter in to buy one and she said that she wouldn't wear it and he said, "you will wear it or you will be on the bench"..... they bought it and she wore it. Nice job Dad!!!

 

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You could really be opening a can of worms here. Remember the conversations about masks on batting helmets?? People were in an uproar. The defensive mask?? Even worse!!! I took alot of heat for being one of the first to mandate our players to wear facemask at 1st, 3rd and pitcher up through 14u. Some of that heat came from some of our own coaches and board members. When the buck stopped at my desk, I did want to sleep at night so I did issue the mandate.
Joe had the logical answer. Do what you have to do in your programs.
As far as umpires go, I think that there are probably ADA rules apply. I would issue the recommendation to the coach, the the player and maybe even go to the bleachers and recommend it to the parent to any player who demonstrates that they may not be able to protect themselves regardless of the reason (handicap or not). Even none of them took the recommendation, I think the liability would not fall on the guy in Blue.

Personally, I think that an umpire would not be held liable, especially after discussing the point with the coach and parents. That is me, but a jury could see differently. But just asking for the release is usually enough to get people thinking that something could go wrong and they could be held responsible. A technique that can sway people to thinking that there just might be a better way to tackle the issue. Maybe enough to get the Rec Board to consider/reconsider their league rules.

 

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Ok, has every one's blood pressure receded?

I would not call the authorities. But hey, I know there is someone out there that would.....come on, I know you are out there.

This is not a mask issue, it is about a player, IMHO, that will not be able to defend herself with the equipment required by the existing rules (her glove).

Hind sight is, of course, 20/20. I would have a talk with the coach and since it is a rec league, then someone from the Rec Board was probably there and I might have included them in the discussion. I might have even ask the coach/Board Member for a written release from liability.

But the bottom line is......if you did nothing about it and she got hurt, could you sleep that night????

If you did nothing about a girl with two arms could you sleep at night? Girls get hit in the face every year which is why many wear a mask. Or would you, as an ump require all girls wear a mask? Would you sleep at night if a girl with two arms was hit and you let her play?

I don't think you can argue that it is safe for ANY girl to pitch without a mask but wouldn't protecting only the girl with the disability be discrimination? Would you do it because you felt sorry for her? Just some thoughts for discussion.

 

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There is a certain point when the umpire has to use his/her better judgment. People need to stop being so darn PC already, it's called a disability for a reason. Anyone who has been around this game for any length of time has seen a pitcher get drilled.

When my dd was 12u we were playing at Genshaft and saw a 18u pitcher take one right between the eyes off of a rocketec. She laid motionless for 20 minutes before the ambulance took her away. The best pitchers still get come-backers.

If I was the league manager I would make the player, parents and coach watch several videos of injuries suffered by pitchers. Then at least they will be making an informed decision of what could possibly happen.

 

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There is a certain point when the umpire has to use his/her better judgment. People need to stop being so darn PC already, it's called a disability for a reason. Anyone who has been around this game for any length of time has seen a pitcher get drilled.

When my dd was 12u we were playing at Genshaft and saw a 18u pitcher take one right between the eyes off of a rocketec. She laid motionless for 20 minutes before the ambulance took her away. The best pitchers still get come-backers.

If I was the league manager I would make the player, parents and coach watch several videos of injuries suffered by pitchers. Then at least they will be making an informed decision of what could possibly happen.

Did that 18u kid have a physical disability before getting hit?

 

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No, actually she was cruising through the other teams line-up. I don't recall ever hearing what her outcome was, but it put the fear of God in me about my dd pitching.

 

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There
are coaches in coaching boxes that have a slower reaction time then she
has.maybe they should wear a mask too,lol.

They should get beamed then :lmao::lmao: