what is the correct call?

[geowardjr]

Runners on 1st and 2nd with two outs.

Ball is hit to SS. SS makes the trow to 3B. Runner appears to have made it to the bag before any tag or force out. (was a bang bang play)

Base umpire does not make the call. He looks to the Home plate umpire (who did leave the plate and advanced up the 3B line) Neither make the call.

Both umps have a conference. Head ump tells the coaches that neither of the umps saw the tag and neither of the umps saw if the runner beat the throw or if the 3B beat the runner to the bag.

You are the ump ... is the runner safe or out?

 

[lewam3]

Safe...wait....out! I mean safe! Bretman will have an answer for this

 

[coachjwb]

If no one saw an out being made, then the runner has to be considered safe (I think) ...

 

[Practice?]

Has to be safe if neither Ump saw the tag or the force out.

 

[ValleyStorm]

I would assume safe! ....... Unless we were playing defense LOL

 

[okiedad1961]

If they both made a no call and admitted they both missed it.I'd assume runner safe,and I'd had lost confidence in them pretty much.I'm a realist all umps are gonna miss a couple a game ,just hoping they all don't go against us.

 

[Louuuuu]

This is an unfortunate mis-communication between the umps.

Before every game, the umps discuss "who covers what" in a number of potential situations. Sometimes, the plate ump wants the runner at third, sometimes the base umpire gets everything but Home. It can vary between games - depending on personnel. If these two hadn't worked together before, I'm thinking that they each assumed the other was covering third base. Embarrassing, but it happens.

... One of the benefits of keeping umpires paired up throughout the day.

 

[Eastside]

The field umpire has the first play in the infield unless it is at home plate. He would have to make the call. Sounds like maybe a noob. As far as safe or out. It would be whatever the umpire calls. Are you saying that since they didn't see the play that they didn't make a decision and the game was stuck in limbo and they are waiting for the softball gods to render judgement?

 

[BretMan2]

They shouldn't have to discuss coverage for this one beforehand. Ground ball on the infield, first throw to third base, ALWAYS belongs to the base umpire. This is umpiring 101. There are no accepted deviations or exceptions to that mechanic.

Why they missed it, who knows? Nobody's perfect. I missed one similar to this a few weeks ago, probably because it was my fifth game of the day in 90 degree heat. Fatigue can do funny things to your mental process.

If neither made a call, then by default the runner is safe. You can't "guess" an out. The only outs you call are the ones you actually see.

 

[ech92]

Bretman, I'm glad you made that comment about " you can't guess ". I told an ump that this weekend at Gapss!
Runner was attempting to advance to 3rd & 1st baseman throws ball to 3rd. My runner slides head first to backside of the bag, 3rd baseman is infront of the bag. Runner slides in, gas hand on bag when 3rd baseman has to reach way back & then lays glove down on runners hand which is on the bag. Mind you, the ball was there in plenty of time but 3rd couldn't find the runner until she was on bag & already stopped. Ump calls her out, I talk to him to ask what he seen that would make him think shes out ( maybe he thought she picked her hand up or whatever ) he says " coach that ball got there way before your runner got there ". I said I agree but she didn't immediately make the tag, he replies " that ball beat her by a mile she's out ". I told him he can't guess or assume that a player is out and just walked away! Next game I watched him guess on a tag play were he was behind the SS as she totally wiffs on a tag of a runner. Coach goes nuts, ump says " theres no way she missed the tag" he was guessing again as he could not see it!

 

[geowardjr]

The UMPa called our runner out. Told our coach they both missed the call but "think she tagged runner" This was second blown call of inning by tje base ump. Two college coaches who were watching sort of chuckled and said there are bad calls but those were bad call.

Yes, it lead to our head coach being ejected and lead to some good entertainment I have not seen since 10u Nationals in 2010.

Thanks for the comments .... clearly should have been called safe or not told the coach they both missed it.

 

[coachjwb]

Who knows exactly what all was said or how any of us would have reacted ourselves, but the second the umpire said that they both missed it, the coach should have calmly held his/her ground saying that there is nothing in the rules that says an umpire can call an out they didn't actually see. All they can see now is that the runner is standing safely on the base, so there is no call ... play on. If a basketball ref didn't see the ball go through the hoop, can he call it a basket anyhow? If a football ref didn't see a receiver drop the ball, can he call it an incomplete pass? In this case, the coach could ask for the UIC to be brought in to resolve it, especially if it was a bracket, no-time limit game. Of course there was probably a time limit which is just another reason why this game is not meant to be played with time limits.

 

[Comp]

The clock should be stopped in any situation that is not part of normal play. The protest of a call is such a situation where the clock should be stopped until it is resolved.

 

[coachjwb]

The clock should be stopped in any situation that is not part of normal play. The protest of a call is such a situation where the clock should be stopped until it is resolved.

Comp ... I agree with you in principle, but is that ever done?

 

[BretMan2]

Comp ... I agree with you in principle, but is that ever done?

I've done it, so...yes!

While it sounds good on paper, the problem is it's not written down on paper. That is, there are no written guidelines (ie: actual playing rules) for stopping, starting, or managing the clock. So it's not going to be evenly enforced, in an identical manner, for all possible situations.

If it's left up to the whim of whichever individual happens to be holding the clock that day, you'll have all sorts of variations in the way it's handled. But you can't really say one way is either right or wrong, because there aren't any rules that cover stopping the clock.

 

[Comp]

Comp ... I agree with you in principle, but is that ever done?

Not sure about where you are at, but in my area yes. We are instructed the clock does not stop for anything as a result of normal playing action. Typical injuries that can be taken care of quickly, coaches inquiring or arguing calls etc the clock does not stop. If there is an injury that cannot be taken care of in a short time frame, emergency has to be called or there is a protest situation, the clock stops until the problem is resolved.

 

[geowardjr]

Who knows exactly what all was said or how any of us would have reacted ourselves, but the second the umpire said that they both missed it, the coach should have calmly held his/her ground saying that there is nothing in the rules that says an umpire can call an out they didn't actually see. All they can see now is that the runner is standing safely on the base, so there is no call ... play on. If a basketball ref didn't see the ball go through the hoop, can he call it a basket anyhow? If a football ref didn't see a receiver drop the ball, can he call it an incomplete pass? In this case, the coach could ask for the UIC to be brought in to resolve it, especially if it was a bracket, no-time limit game. Of course there was probably a time limit which is just another reason why this game is not meant to be played with time limits.

It was elimination game. Umps exact words "Neither of us saw the tag or the force out, we think she made the tag ... runner is out" I think what made the situation worse was the blown call two batters earlier where a runner was called out at 1st when she clearly was one step past the bag before the ball got there. Not sure what the comments were that caused the coach to be tossed but I don't think it was nice. lol

thanks for answering ... never had both umps say they missed the call "BUT" ...