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Aren't we missing key information such as "Did the ball, or defensive player touch the ground in foul territory"?
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Wouldn't that be just like a squibb grounder that starts in fair territory, with the catcher and third baseman standing over it waiting for it to spin foul? If it's BEFORE the bag it's where the ball is when it's touched (not where the fielder's feet are either).
JV game a few years back - DD is called for an illegal pitch (her ONLY one I can remember) because her drag foot was off the pitcher's plate when she released the ball! SAY WHAT??
JV game a few years back - DD is called for an illegal pitch (her ONLY one I can remember) because her drag foot was off the pitcher's plate when she released the ball! SAY WHAT??
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Prior to the ball passing 1st base or 3rd base the only thing that matters is where the ball is when first touched by a fielder. Where the fielder is is irrelevant.
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Had a couple good ones tonight. First one similar to another post. Our third baseman tries to catch a pop up that is obviously foul. It hits her glove and bounces out and lands just outside the line and rolls toward pitcher. Batter runs to first. First base ump asks plate ump if it was foul or not because she (plate ump) never declared either way. Our coach argued it was foul. Ump said baseman was straddling the line when it hit her glove so she was going to leave girl on first. No more argument from coach. Wow.
Later in same game. Runner on 1st, batter hits ball to 3rd who flips to SS covering 2nd. 2nd baseman steps on bag and slides over to try to turn double play. Ump calls runner out at 2nd then apparently looks to 1st for throw. Runner going to 2nd does not attempt to slide because she was obviously out. She runs past SS through 2nd and as she turns to run to dugout 2nd baseman drops to ground and starts crying. Keep in mind she was 3ft up baseline and runner had already passed 2nd turning for dugout. When ump asked what happened she said runner hit her in side. I don't think so because I was watching play. Both umps questioned each other and agreed that they never seen it. Even though they both said they never seen it, they declared interference and removed runner from 1st. How can this be?
Funny thing is, one of the umps was the same ump who last year made a runner go back to 3rd (safe) after my daughter picked her off and she was heading for dugout. He said that it happened so fast he never seen it, even though 3rd base coach told him runner was obviously out. Wow.
Later in same game. Runner on 1st, batter hits ball to 3rd who flips to SS covering 2nd. 2nd baseman steps on bag and slides over to try to turn double play. Ump calls runner out at 2nd then apparently looks to 1st for throw. Runner going to 2nd does not attempt to slide because she was obviously out. She runs past SS through 2nd and as she turns to run to dugout 2nd baseman drops to ground and starts crying. Keep in mind she was 3ft up baseline and runner had already passed 2nd turning for dugout. When ump asked what happened she said runner hit her in side. I don't think so because I was watching play. Both umps questioned each other and agreed that they never seen it. Even though they both said they never seen it, they declared interference and removed runner from 1st. How can this be?
Funny thing is, one of the umps was the same ump who last year made a runner go back to 3rd (safe) after my daughter picked her off and she was heading for dugout. He said that it happened so fast he never seen it, even though 3rd base coach told him runner was obviously out. Wow.
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How about this one...cather and ss. have a girl in a run down between 3rd and home.
Catcher over throws s.s. and ball sails into left field , runner takes off for home plate to be greeted by the pitcher who picked up the extra ball that was wedged between the backstop and rubber curtain on the backstop.
Pitcher tags runner with extra ball......ump calls runner out.
Even after telling/yelling at ump that was the wrong ball...the run didn't count !!!!
Catcher over throws s.s. and ball sails into left field , runner takes off for home plate to be greeted by the pitcher who picked up the extra ball that was wedged between the backstop and rubber curtain on the backstop.
Pitcher tags runner with extra ball......ump calls runner out.
Even after telling/yelling at ump that was the wrong ball...the run didn't count !!!!
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Now that is a heads up play by the pitcher.....LOL
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That was smart thinking on the pitcher if you ask me, not saying it is right but that would have been pretty funny. How does an ump not know where the ball is? Was there a riot at this game?
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We had an interesting call at a 12U game last year. Our opponent had a runner on third and hit a ball down the third base line which is fielded by our third baseman who proceeds to make a very convincing fake throw to one and turns to tag the runner. The runner almost hits the fence going around the tag (at least 6 feet out of the baseline) and scores on the play. I said that the runner was clearly out of the baseline but was informed that she is allowed to create her own baseline. He explained that she was already 3 feet off the line when the third baseman fielded the ball and was allowed to go three feet from there...my understanding of the creating your own baseline rule was when you were rounding a base that the point when you turned to the next base that your baseline was created and you had 3 feet from there. We ended up losing in 9
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Some of these are so bad I couldn't even begin to guess what the umpires were thinking or what rule they thought they were applying or what they might have thought they saw...or in the case of Daddy O's post...what they didn't see!
On Ohio Hawks "basepath call", I'd have to see it myself to see where the runner was, but actually the explanation you got is pretty sound.
A runner can't deviate from her basepath more than three feet to avoid a tag. When the fielder has the ball and is attempting a tag, the basepath is defined as a straight line from the runner's position to the base she is going to. If she was already three feet off the baseline- the line that goes directly from base-to-base- when the tag attempt was made, she could still deviate another three feet away from the base and that would be her basepath.
Maybe this one was a case where the umpire's judgment of the runner's path was a little off- you'd have to see it- but basically the explanation you got was pretty much what the rule actually is.
The rest of these, frankly, scare me a little bit!
On Ohio Hawks "basepath call", I'd have to see it myself to see where the runner was, but actually the explanation you got is pretty sound.
A runner can't deviate from her basepath more than three feet to avoid a tag. When the fielder has the ball and is attempting a tag, the basepath is defined as a straight line from the runner's position to the base she is going to. If she was already three feet off the baseline- the line that goes directly from base-to-base- when the tag attempt was made, she could still deviate another three feet away from the base and that would be her basepath.
Maybe this one was a case where the umpire's judgment of the runner's path was a little off- you'd have to see it- but basically the explanation you got was pretty much what the rule actually is.
The rest of these, frankly, scare me a little bit!
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The rest of these, frankly, scare me a little bit!
And now you see why we have been complaining.
For this aspect of the game, at the HS and travel level, What can be done to improve it? I'm not picking on this aspect because I think that the coaching aspect can also be improved upon but that is a different thread.
For the HS side, I think that OHSAA has to come up with complaint/resolution process. It is apparent that the current rating program is ineffective.
Just some food for thought.
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I agree totally with the post above made by wvanalmsick.
While I realize we can’t play this game without umpires and I know they aren’t getting rich with the pay they get for a game a day, there still needs to be a moral obligation that umpires know the game they are officiating and have a working knowledge of its rules. Honestly, I don’t know everything that is required of the umpires in our local area. I used to know, was once a sanctioned ump myself but that was years ago. It’s just not my cup of tea if you know what I mean. Back in the day, you could get a card for slow-pitch softball by simply promising to show up on time. Lol. Seriously, this area of the game needs to be improved across the board or we will struggle to ever get our game to a level equal that of basketball.
I believe people making a conscious decision to umpire should be tested in 3 categories. A written test about rules and rule interpretation, a field test of positioning both behind the plate and on the field as well as answering correctly questions about field calls and scenarios, and last a verbal test of game protocol, inquiries, protests, and of their people skills to handle situations that are sure to be a part of the game. A passing grade needs to be established along with a follow up afterwards to go over the correct rulings and methods to be used as an umpire.
Many have the misconception of an umpires roll in our game. The old baseball mentality of the tobacco chewing, loud and obnoxious bully image that fans perceive as the authority figure in the game is simply not the plan of those promoting fastpitch softball around the world. There are certain individuals, for their own reasons, that are drawn to participate in our game as the man/woman in blue. Sometimes, it is their belief it’s their job to draw attention to them when in reality the game of baseball AND softball was designed to have the officials appear invisible to a crowd. Unfortunately, power hungry personalities emerged from the game and became noticeable. Once these individuals saw the opportunity to be center stage and have such a meaningful impact on the game, monsters were created and old time baseball promoters encouraged it. It was a way to “entertain” a baseball crowd beyond the game, especially when some baseball games were paced so slowly. It’s no different from car racing. Throw beer in the stands and let’s all wait for the big wreck.
Fastpitch softball is just that----fast. The game IS the “entertainment” and there is NO need for officials to believe they need to interject beyond the boundaries of the job description. We play softball in half the time, the players are constantly moving, and if you go get a beer at the concession stand during a fast pitch game you better hope the line is short or you’ll miss an entire inning--------maybe more.
While women try to make this game their own, men still dominate one of the most important aspects of the game--------officiating. To be honest, I believe the absolute best way to overcome our officiating issues is to not only test as mentioned in the paragraph above but use women as umpires. We need you to officiate your own game. Most women are skilled at paying attention to detail and normally are very good at streamlining their thought process to stay within the boundaries of a rule book. It’s what women do much better than men. Look at a girl’s coloring book compared to a boy’s coloring book. The girl’s book is always in the lines and neat. Since women display such traits, I believe we can fix this game with women officials.
Come on Supermoms, get out of the lawn chair and start reading up cause the day is coming we may want you to take over baseball too!!!
While I realize we can’t play this game without umpires and I know they aren’t getting rich with the pay they get for a game a day, there still needs to be a moral obligation that umpires know the game they are officiating and have a working knowledge of its rules. Honestly, I don’t know everything that is required of the umpires in our local area. I used to know, was once a sanctioned ump myself but that was years ago. It’s just not my cup of tea if you know what I mean. Back in the day, you could get a card for slow-pitch softball by simply promising to show up on time. Lol. Seriously, this area of the game needs to be improved across the board or we will struggle to ever get our game to a level equal that of basketball.
I believe people making a conscious decision to umpire should be tested in 3 categories. A written test about rules and rule interpretation, a field test of positioning both behind the plate and on the field as well as answering correctly questions about field calls and scenarios, and last a verbal test of game protocol, inquiries, protests, and of their people skills to handle situations that are sure to be a part of the game. A passing grade needs to be established along with a follow up afterwards to go over the correct rulings and methods to be used as an umpire.
Many have the misconception of an umpires roll in our game. The old baseball mentality of the tobacco chewing, loud and obnoxious bully image that fans perceive as the authority figure in the game is simply not the plan of those promoting fastpitch softball around the world. There are certain individuals, for their own reasons, that are drawn to participate in our game as the man/woman in blue. Sometimes, it is their belief it’s their job to draw attention to them when in reality the game of baseball AND softball was designed to have the officials appear invisible to a crowd. Unfortunately, power hungry personalities emerged from the game and became noticeable. Once these individuals saw the opportunity to be center stage and have such a meaningful impact on the game, monsters were created and old time baseball promoters encouraged it. It was a way to “entertain” a baseball crowd beyond the game, especially when some baseball games were paced so slowly. It’s no different from car racing. Throw beer in the stands and let’s all wait for the big wreck.
Fastpitch softball is just that----fast. The game IS the “entertainment” and there is NO need for officials to believe they need to interject beyond the boundaries of the job description. We play softball in half the time, the players are constantly moving, and if you go get a beer at the concession stand during a fast pitch game you better hope the line is short or you’ll miss an entire inning--------maybe more.
While women try to make this game their own, men still dominate one of the most important aspects of the game--------officiating. To be honest, I believe the absolute best way to overcome our officiating issues is to not only test as mentioned in the paragraph above but use women as umpires. We need you to officiate your own game. Most women are skilled at paying attention to detail and normally are very good at streamlining their thought process to stay within the boundaries of a rule book. It’s what women do much better than men. Look at a girl’s coloring book compared to a boy’s coloring book. The girl’s book is always in the lines and neat. Since women display such traits, I believe we can fix this game with women officials.
Come on Supermoms, get out of the lawn chair and start reading up cause the day is coming we may want you to take over baseball too!!!
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Speaking Ohio high school softball...Before an official ever sets foot on a field he is required to attend 25 hours of classroom training, then pass a 100 question test on rules and mechanics. So it's not exactly like they're just tossing folks off the street out there to umpire games!
Other sanctioning bodies are less strict than that, but still have various training programs, classes, clinics, etc. for their umpires. Some are mandatory, others are voluntary for umpires who wish to advance their knowledge of the game.
More women as officials might be a good thing- as long as they become good officials! I don't really see it as a gender issue, or one sex being inherently better than the other. For as many females that participate in this sport, it surprises me that there are not more female umpires. I would guess that our local softball umpire association is less than 10% female, and probably closer to 5%.
If women want to umpire, the opportunity is there- same as it is for anyone else that wants to umpire. There certainly isn't any sort of organized effort to keep them out of the umpiring ranks. Quite the opposite- in recent years there have been several proactive programs aimed at recruiting women and minority umpires. In fact, they can become certified on a fast track program, lasting only two days, where the requirements are much less than those who opt to go through the full 25 hour classroom training.
(Maybe that will ultimately pull in more women and minorities, but I'm not really sure if sheer "numbers" should be our goal here. The thought of reducing the amount of training, just to pull some targeted candidates into officiating, probably isn't going to do much about having better officials. But that is another topic for another thread...)
So why aren't there more female umpires? If we are going to generalize that women are more detail-oriented, or possess a though process well-suited for umpiring, then I would offer another generalization.
Perhaps females are less-willing to handle the type of conflict umpiring is often associated with- the confrontational relationship between the officials and the participants, with angry players, coaches and fans hurling insults at them, scrutinizing their every move, quick to agrue whenever something doesn't go their way. Maybe women are inclined to not want to be associated with that type of environment.
And maybe that proves that they are the smarter sex after all!
Other sanctioning bodies are less strict than that, but still have various training programs, classes, clinics, etc. for their umpires. Some are mandatory, others are voluntary for umpires who wish to advance their knowledge of the game.
More women as officials might be a good thing- as long as they become good officials! I don't really see it as a gender issue, or one sex being inherently better than the other. For as many females that participate in this sport, it surprises me that there are not more female umpires. I would guess that our local softball umpire association is less than 10% female, and probably closer to 5%.
If women want to umpire, the opportunity is there- same as it is for anyone else that wants to umpire. There certainly isn't any sort of organized effort to keep them out of the umpiring ranks. Quite the opposite- in recent years there have been several proactive programs aimed at recruiting women and minority umpires. In fact, they can become certified on a fast track program, lasting only two days, where the requirements are much less than those who opt to go through the full 25 hour classroom training.
(Maybe that will ultimately pull in more women and minorities, but I'm not really sure if sheer "numbers" should be our goal here. The thought of reducing the amount of training, just to pull some targeted candidates into officiating, probably isn't going to do much about having better officials. But that is another topic for another thread...)
So why aren't there more female umpires? If we are going to generalize that women are more detail-oriented, or possess a though process well-suited for umpiring, then I would offer another generalization.
Perhaps females are less-willing to handle the type of conflict umpiring is often associated with- the confrontational relationship between the officials and the participants, with angry players, coaches and fans hurling insults at them, scrutinizing their every move, quick to agrue whenever something doesn't go their way. Maybe women are inclined to not want to be associated with that type of environment.
And maybe that proves that they are the smarter sex after all!
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Speaking Ohio high school softball...Before an official ever sets foot on a field he is required to attend 25 hours of classroom training, then pass a 100 question test on rules and mechanics. So it's not exactly like they're just tossing folks off the street out there to umpire games!
Other sanctioning bodies are less strict than that, but still have various training programs, classes, clinics, etc. for their umpires. Some are mandatory, others are voluntary for umpires who wish to advance their knowledge of the game.
More women as officials might be a good thing- as long as they become good officials! I don't really see it as a gender issue, or one sex being inherently better than the other. For as many females that participate in this sport, it surprises me that there are not more female umpires. I would guess that our local softball umpire association is less than 10% female, and probably closer to 5%.
If women want to umpire, the opportunity is there- same as it is for anyone else that wants to umpire. There certainly isn't any sort of organized effort to keep them out of the umpiring ranks. Quite the opposite- in recent years there have been several proactive programs aimed at recruiting women and minority umpires. In fact, they can become certified on a fast track program, lasting only two days, where the requirements are much less than those who opt to go through the full 25 hour classroom training.
(Maybe that will ultimately pull in more women and minorities, but I'm not really sure if sheer "numbers" should be our goal here. The thought of reducing the amount of training, just to pull some targeted candidates into officiating, probably isn't going to do much about having better officials. But that is another topic for another thread...)
So why aren't there more female umpires? If we are going to generalize that women are more detail-oriented, or possess a though process well-suited for umpiring, then I would offer another generalization.
Perhaps females are less-willing to handle the type of conflict umpiring is often associated with- the confrontational relationship between the officials and the participants, with angry players, coaches and fans hurling insults at them, scrutinizing their every move, quick to agrue whenever something doesn't go their way. Maybe women are inclined to not want to be associated with that type of environment.
And maybe that proves that they are the smarter sex after all!
You are probably right. They call it better from the stands, and down the line anyway.
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I know a fantastic female ump in Akron - Kathy something... She is smart, fast and fair.
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Kathy G. works NCAA level ball and is a very good official. She and I have worked some men's fastpitch together. She has also umpired quite a few men's games that I have played in.
The post I made above was not intended in anyway to denigrate female umpires. I have worked with some very good ones and trained at least a dozen of them for one of the local leagues I'm associated with. There are a few that I'd prefer to work with rather than some of the guys I've worked with before.
I was just wondering why there aren't more of them. Fastpitch is such a female dominated sport that you would think the percentage of women wanting to stay associated with the game after their playing days are over would be higher.
The post I made above was not intended in anyway to denigrate female umpires. I have worked with some very good ones and trained at least a dozen of them for one of the local leagues I'm associated with. There are a few that I'd prefer to work with rather than some of the guys I've worked with before.
I was just wondering why there aren't more of them. Fastpitch is such a female dominated sport that you would think the percentage of women wanting to stay associated with the game after their playing days are over would be higher.
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At our 8th grade game..Had the bases loaded, batter lost track of the count and started to walk to first after the third ball, the three base runners all took a step off thier base. All is good so far, then the umpire tells the runner on third to stop. The rest of the runners stop as well. Then she calls the runner who stepped off first out for leaving the bag and going back to the same bag. Ball was never returned to the pitcher. and the girl on first didn't go back and forth. Third out to end the game with the bases loaded. Once the umpire stops a runner during a live play...What are you supposed to do?
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Now that is bad! Obviously an umpire that is not familiar with several rules. Being a middle school game, it's more likely that you had an inexperienced umpire and a call like this bears that out.
Rookies will make dumb mistakes like this. You can only hope that they'll only make it one time! Any official that makes a call on a rule they're not familiar with should have their nose buried in their rule book after the game so that it doesn't happen again.
What can a coach do? Since OHSAA does not allow protests, all you can do is plead your case to the official and hope that they see the error of their ways. Maybe a coach calmly explaining the Look Back Rule (pitcher MUST have the ball in the circle to call it) will make the light bulb go off and get the call reversed. Maybe a coach explaining that an an umpire is allowed to reverse a call that puts a runner in jeopardy (as this one did when she told the runner to stop) would work. And maybe not.
What generally doesn't work is when the coach just goes ballistic and blows a gasket. Human nature is such that yelling will usually just make the official more defensive of their call and be even less likely to reverse it.
Rookies will make dumb mistakes like this. You can only hope that they'll only make it one time! Any official that makes a call on a rule they're not familiar with should have their nose buried in their rule book after the game so that it doesn't happen again.
What can a coach do? Since OHSAA does not allow protests, all you can do is plead your case to the official and hope that they see the error of their ways. Maybe a coach calmly explaining the Look Back Rule (pitcher MUST have the ball in the circle to call it) will make the light bulb go off and get the call reversed. Maybe a coach explaining that an an umpire is allowed to reverse a call that puts a runner in jeopardy (as this one did when she told the runner to stop) would work. And maybe not.
What generally doesn't work is when the coach just goes ballistic and blows a gasket. Human nature is such that yelling will usually just make the official more defensive of their call and be even less likely to reverse it.
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What generally doesn't work is when the coach just goes ballistic and blows a gasket. Human nature is such that yelling will usually just make the official more defensive of their call and be even less likely to reverse it.
... There should be a sign in every dugout stating this!
... There should be a sign in every dugout stating this!
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Bretman - I didn't think you were. I just thought of her as being a great example. There's no way I could want that job!
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Bretman - I didn't think you were. I just thought of her as being a great example. There's no way I could want that job!
I didn't think that you thought I was, but was worried that somebody might take it that way.
