Firecrackers??????

[CARDS]

I have yet to meet a coach who has made money from fastpitch. Every coach I know, has spent countless dollars on turney fees, equipment, apparel, etc... Even the coaches who are given an allowance for time/rooms still end up making little to nothing. I believe all coaches should be subsidized to off set many of these costs. Do I think this should be a side hustle? No. Just that coaches need not be out money doing something they love. Point is if the ORG head has somehow become disconnected from the teams they represent and the main focus is driving dollars to his/her pocket, that's when everyone scratches their head.

I know of some SW Ohio and SE Ind coaches that made their living or, supplemented their income with softball. I must be an idiot because it always cost me money..
Most coached HS Ball, Travel teams, gave hitting or pitching lessons. some owned sporting goods stores and the team uniforms, spirit wear and equipment all went through the coach.
In Base Ball there are some coaches that own buildings they rent out for indoor practices etc...

How do you think the Ohio parents would feel with having monthly dues of $150 to $350 to play like a lot of teams in TX, AZ and CA do...This does not include the team/organization fees of $500 to 1000 dollars... Maybe not all coaches are paid but I would say the head coach of a team with 15 roistered players $1500-$2500 per player that is a lot of coin to not be making some profit...

One of my co-workers moved to Southern CA 4 years ago and the 16U team his DD played on was $2100...He said they do not even play tournaments every weekend throughout the summer 4 with a national and playing friendlies...He did say the high caliber clubs actually get college coaches to come out to the friendlies IDK...Maybe someone from the Bandits could chime in on if they have college coaches at their friendlies. Les....
Fall same thing as many friendlies as tournaments...

AZ Bombers coach on fees...http://www.43ft.com/43FT/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=21926&p=48012&hilit=fees#p48012

 

[Doom Leader]

Cards great post!

 

[wow]

I know of some SW Ohio and SE Ind coaches that made their living or, supplemented their income with softball. I must be an idiot because it always cost me money..
Most coached HS Ball, Travel teams, gave hitting or pitching lessons. some owned sporting goods stores and the team uniforms, spirit wear and equipment all went through the coach.

How do you think the Ohio parents would feel with having monthly dues of $150 to $350 to play like a lot of teams in TX, AZ and CA do...This does not include the team/organization fees of $500 to 1000 dollars... Maybe not all coaches are paid but I would say the head coach of a team with 15 roistered players $1500-$2500 per player that is a lot of coin to not be making

Most of us are not out West playing so I cant attest to how fees are set up there. Of course coaches have a UBER side gig. No issues there. Hit/pitch/rent that's very common. If you funnel money to a local business it makes sense. Just not what I was referring to. I was trying to focus on the coaching of the team and ability to make out financially.

Since you brought up teams out west and differences with Ohio teams.. How do you think Ohio parents would respond to a 21-23 team roster? Paying for a week at nationals to maybe pitch run? The monthly fee is another huge factor. There is a difference in mentality (good or bad, depending on your outlook on the topic) between the way its done out there and here. Do coaches make bank out there? Maybe.. But those types of fees are VERY RARE in Ohio, hence my original comment.

 

[wannaplaysb]

My thoughts and humble opinion...
Until those big out west coaches start to show up at Ohio elite tourneys where we play. No. If we keep feeding into the we will come where you are i.e. Sparkler and PGF in Huntington, why could they bother. Unless the well runs dry or girls here prove themselves worthy, the same will continue. Then the slope we all are afraid of will occur. Our girls compete. That's proven... and are doing well nationally. With the talent we face weekend in and out I know that our girls can beat some of the best.

 

[CARDS]

Most of us are not out West playing so I cant attest to how fees are set up there. Of course coaches have a UBER side gig. No issues there. Hit/pitch/rent that's very common. If you funnel money to a local business it makes sense. Just not what I was referring to. I was trying to focus on the coaching of the team and ability to make out financially.

Since you brought up teams out west and differences with Ohio teams.. How do you think Ohio parents would respond to a 21-23 team roster? Paying for a week at nationals to maybe pitch run? The monthly fee is another huge factor. There is a difference in mentality (good or bad, depending on your outlook on the topic) between the way its done out there and here. Do coaches make bank out there? Maybe.. But those types of fees are VERY RARE in Ohio, hence my original comment.

Its all part of a money chain. Iin Ohio the chain has got a little longer and stronger the past few years but is still nowhere near some other states....

Naturally; Ohio parents, teams and coaches have yet to be groomed in the west coast model but, just like the increases in tournament fees there will be some complaints but they end up paying the price.

With the success Ohio has had (and we have had a lot) it will Draw various organizations to the state in order to continue/grow their business model or, the word I dislike that a lot of organizations use their brand...

There was a thread a while back what does a name get you...As these big names make their way into the state the west coast model will also make its way It may take a few years but it will happen and parents will welcome them with open arms...As the USF coach said, "Chasing the dream" and "to make their kid smile"...

 

[tjsmize3]

My thoughts and humble opinion...
Until those big out west coaches start to show up at Ohio elite tourneys where we play. No. If we keep feeding into the we will come where you are i.e. Sparkler and PGF in Huntington, why could they bother. Unless the well runs dry or girls here prove themselves worthy, the same will continue. Then the slope we all are afraid of will occur. Our girls compete. That's proven... and are doing well nationally. With the talent we face weekend in and out I know that our girls can beat some of the best.

I love the enthusiasm you show for our Ohio teams as our brand of softball continues to get stronger and more recognized on a national scale. When I first came on OFC that was what 90% of my posts were about (i.e. recruiting and taking Ohio teams to compete nationally). Although we still tend to have trouble putting a roster together of more than 9 without infighting, and we still tend to resent the other guy's success too much, I think Ohio softball has grown tremendously and has been increasingly enjoying success on a national stage. It may surprise you to know that we ARE seeing west coast teams come to Ohio to compete. Just this past summer we had the OC Batbusters at the Ohio PGF Nat Qualifier. We also had a team from Minnesota and South Dakota, so the net has been cast farther than you might think. We had 2 Ohio teams place 17th at PGF this summer, as well as Outlaws Morrison (who has mostly PA girls, but is technically Ohio-based) place 5th! I have to disagree with you though ONLY on your point about the Sparkler and PGF Huntington Beach. First off, Colorado during the week of Independence day is THE place to play in the US. That is probably never going to change and it is not a "West coast" tournament. All of the West coast attends those tournaments (IDT, Fireworks, Sparkler) including almost every college in the United States. When you have Mike White, Carol Hutchins, Michelle Gascoigne, and Glenn Moore all watching your game, you know you are in the right place. Secondly PGF Nationals are considered the top nationals in the country and again, if you are not playing there that week but had the opportunity, you are just hurting yourself. I would tend to focus more on the accomplishments our Ohio girls have made on a national scale and less about whether or not west coast teams come to Ohio. The later has much more to do with business and marketing, then Ohio softball talent.

 

[tjsmize3]

With the success Ohio has had (and we have had a lot) it will Draw various organizations to the state in order to continue/grow their business model or, the word I dislike that a lot of organizations use their brand...

There was a thread a while back what does a name get you...As these big names make their way into the state the west coast model will also make its way It may take a few years but it will happen and parents will welcome them with open arms...As the USF coach said, "Chasing the dream" and "to make their kid smile"...

You are very wise Cards! It very likely what you say is how things will progress over the next decade of softball in Ohio. I know I am no Ken Eriksen, but I have to disagree a little bit with the "Disney" effect. I really do not think most parents spend the money they do to make their kid smile... it's more the middle of the pack effect. It's very easy to make a good financial decision to either pay or not pay for your kid to play "Big Softball" if you are at the upper or lower 10% of the talent pool. It's obvious that the former will get a good ROI and the later will not. BUT... when your DD is in the middle 80% group (where the vast majority of us sit) we want to do everything we can to get (or feel like we get) our DD into that "top group." No parent wants to deny their daughter a chance at what they perceive is "the best" and parents will pay dearly for it... even if it defies logic! Since almost no parents in the 80% group don't see their child at the top of the heap, we continue to feed the dream and the TDs and savy org heads rightly see a market to invest in... your softball dollar! Mark my words CARDS, 5 yrs from now you will have MORE teams playing mega showcase/stay to plays on fields a coach would never dream of coming to all just to say they went to "XYZ Showcase" in whereversville. And likewise, guys like Tony Rico know there is a whole group of parents in Ohio eager to pay his fee to get their daughter on a "Firecrackers" team, even though there is absolutely no perceived connection to the CA teams who are absolutely loaded with top-end talent and tons of D1 prospects. It's very easy to see where our $$$ go once paid into any organization. As wow said earlier "buyer beware."

 

[Fairman]

Tom, I admire your enthusiasm for national tournaments like the IDT, Fireworks, Sparkler and the level of competition and the large number of colleges in attendance. These are elite tournaments for elite, well-heeled players. These tournaments will help the top 1% player find a top 1% program. Bethany or Denison will not be at those tournaments.

It's a mistake to hold that mirror up to the remaining 99%, a kid can find happiness playing for a small D-3 in the middle of Ohio and go on to earn a MBA, MD, PE, NP etc... and have a wonderful life. It makes little sense for most of our kids to travel to these tournaments, pay those fees and attempt to compete at that level. (I've had the experience of a dd pitching at Pennsbury on a field in east muck-chuck, Sure there were a hundred+ colleges registered but not one at that field but the fees, effort and expense were the same.)

I am asking parents to NOT drink that koolaid. If your kid is in that top 1% then go for it, but before you do; look around; is she is truly the best player compared to the last ten teams (120 kids) you played, then a trip to Colorado might be worthwhile.

It is possible for your dd to play in regional tournaments for regional teams and attend any one of the numerous D-2, D-3, NAIA schools in the region receiving an excellent education as the prime propose of her 4-years in college. You can have no delusions that your dd can play professionally and earn a substantially living as her life's work. Those top players are getting little better than bank teller's wages....if their checks clear.

Look one year beyond college and ask what now? You might forgo that Colorado trip and focus more on her life's work. Everyone will be happier.

 

[tjsmize3]

Fairman, I am approaching writing a novel here this morning so I will just add, I hope I have written enough to make it clear that you and I are 100% in agreement. Those are 2 beautiful schools and softball programs with great coaches. My oldest visited both and both attend Stingrays and some larger Midwest showcases as well. Softball is great at any level, but our emotions sometimes get in the way of us seeing that. BTW... 6 yrs ago, went to Pennsburry, played on a middle school field, saw 0 college coaches, paid full price... sometimes just the cost of an education!

 

[wpaguy]

Fairman, If I could have gave you 10 Thumbs up I would have. I just don't understand some of these organizations and coaches in regards to all the D1 talk. Its almost like if my daughter plays D2 or D3 she is a failure. I don't pretend to know everything in regards to softball or recruiting. I do know , that I will be very happy and Proud if my daughter plays for a small school like Carlow, Chatham, Mt Union ...etc...I actually had 1 coach tell me that if she plays for this organization she will end up at Seton Hill. I honestly was shocked those words came out of his mouth. Funny that he had no idea this is one of my daughters favorite schools. I guess it is up to each person to find what's best. I think you can accomplish a lot by driving 3-4 hours to get exposure.

Tom, I admire your enthusiasm for national tournaments like the IDT, Fireworks, Sparkler and the level of competition and the large number of colleges in attendance. These are elite tournaments for elite, well-heeled players. These tournaments will help the top 1% player find a top 1% program. Bethany or Denison will not be at those tournaments.

It's a mistake to hold that mirror up to the remaining 99%, a kid can find happiness playing for a small D-3 in the middle of Ohio and go on to earn a MBA, MD, PE, NP etc... and have a wonderful life. It makes little sense for most of our kids to travel to these tournaments, pay those fees and attempt to compete at that level. (I've had the experience of a dd pitching at Pennsbury on a field in east muck-chuck, Sure there were a hundred+ colleges registered but not one at that field but the fees, effort and expense were the same.)

I am asking parents to NOT drink that koolaid. If your kid is in that top 1% then go for it, but before you do; look around; is she is truly the best player compared to the last ten teams (120 kids) you played, then a trip to Colorado might be worthwhile.

It is possible for your dd to play in regional tournaments for regional teams and attend any one of the numerous D-2, D-3, NAIA schools in the region receiving an excellent education as the prime propose of her 4-years in college. You can have no delusions that your dd can play professionally and earn a substantially living as her life's work. Those top players are getting little better than bank teller's wages....if their checks clear.

Look one year beyond college and ask what now? You might forgo that Colorado trip and focus more on her life's work. Everyone will be happier.

 

[Run26]

Fairman, If I could have gave you 10 Thumbs up I would have. I just don't understand some of these organizations and coaches in regards to all the D1 talk. Its almost like if my daughter plays D2 or D3 she is a failure. I don't pretend to know everything in regards to softball or recruiting. I do know , that I will be very happy and Proud if my daughter plays for a small school like Carlow, Chatham, Mt Union ...etc...I actually had 1 coach tell me that if she plays for this organization she will end up at Seton Hill. I honestly was shocked those words came out of his mouth. Funny that he had no idea this is one of my daughters favorite schools. I guess it is up to each person to find what's best. I think you can accomplish a lot by driving 3-4 hours to get exposure.

Both of my daughters played for "Elite" travel ball organizations and we traveled all over the place. We would log more time in out of state locations than being at home from June - August. At times, it was ridiculous but again they enjoyed it and it kept us busy as a family. We'd be in Chicago one weekend then St. Louis, Greensboro, Louisville, and on and on and on.

We spoke to so many coaches that showed interest and the vast majority of them were D2 or D3 regional colleges. Long story short, both of my daughters (and us) logged THOUSANDS of miles and end the end they both finished the recruiting process in their own backyards - Stingrays. The tournament right here in Columbus landed both of them D2 scholarships that ended up saving us thousands of dollars and we were close enough to see them play in college.

D1 was never on the table but we sure traveled like we had to have it. My oldest is graduated and has a successful career and the youngest will be finished in 2 more years. They both love(ed) their college experience and we saw a ton of ball. There's absolutely NOTHING better than walking your daughter to the team bus after a double header in college. You walk with pride and it's doesn't matter a hill of beans what division the bus returns to.

 

[manitoudan]

One of the best threads in years here on OFC . Continue on .

 

[sportsdad]

Wow! You said it manitoudan! I never thought I would be happy my when DD was done playing travel ball. I read this entire thread, end to end. Yep I am happy she's done. I have seen and heard many disappointing words from the "newer" Ohio organizations. Think Maybe Little League Softball will find it's way into better talent? The cost is lower and funds are raised by entire communities... May be a future there. Little League was slow on the uptake but I see a future now.... Your thoughts?

 

[wow]

Everyone has their own opinion and path to follow. There are as many reasons to pursue the highest level as there is playing locally. Not sure there is a right of wrong answer. Be honest with talent. Of course everyone thinks their kid is D1 PWR 5!, Of course you WANT to play the best! Of course you want to play with the best ORG. Everyone can't play at the same level. So it starts with honesty. Then look at what your capabilities are financially? Time away from work/home. Is it practical? what about a great leader to help you navigate the recruiting process? You have to have someone who you can trust and is knowledgeable. Here's the bottom line. Everyone THINKS they have the right formula, but the reality is we all make/made mistakes in the choices for one reason or another (Too expensive/not enough coaches/talent was lacking/etc.). Until you walk a mile, you just have to blaze your own path when it comes to turneys, organizations, teams. The best part of the forum is giving a voice and sharing information. What you choose to do with it is up to you.

Take what you read and ask yourself all the tough questions. How much money do I want to invest? How far do I want to travel? Who do I want to align myself with? and about 100 other questions. Even after you do all that you may still find some surprises.

 

[tjsmize3]

Fairman, If I could have gave you 10 Thumbs up I would have. I just don't understand some of these organizations and coaches in regards to all the D1 talk. Its almost like if my daughter plays D2 or D3 she is a failure. I don't pretend to know everything in regards to softball or recruiting. I do know , that I will be very happy and Proud if my daughter plays for a small school like Carlow, Chatham, Mt Union ...etc...I actually had 1 coach tell me that if she plays for this organization she will end up at Seton Hill. I honestly was shocked those words came out of his mouth. Funny that he had no idea this is one of my daughters favorite schools. I guess it is up to each person to find what's best. I think you can accomplish a lot by driving 3-4 hours to get exposure.

wpaguy, I'm a little confused because your team is a top-level team with some great players and great coaching?! I would think many of your players will get the opportunity to play where they want. My oldest was committed to play at Denison before getting a last minute D1 offer and taking it. My next 2 daughters never played anything but rec sports and HS school sports and I am just as proud of what they have accomplished in their young lives to this point. For many reasons I have found myself trying to promote elite level softball in our state and long ago I chose the organization I wanted to do that with. Run26 wrote EXACTLY what I would have felt had my oldest played at Denison or if my youngest goes on to play intramural lacrosse in college. At the end of the day there are a number of people in softball who just love the life lessons and experiences our children (and us) get from this game. This is like the 10th time I've written this on OFC, but one of the absolute best experiences I ever had with my oldest DD and my entire family was when we were with a rec all-star team in a tournament in Zanesville nearly 10 yrs ago. I certainly hope we have not gotten to the point where if we praise something elite like the IDT in Colorado we are heard to be trashing everything else. No, I do not agree the Colorado tournaments are appropriate for only the top 1% of softball players, but they are certainly not for everyone and THAT was the point I was trying to make! TCS and other "big softball" models (Firecrackers?) tend to make millions on the emotional decisions of parents in the sporting world. I DO NOT support this, but unfortunately only see it getting bigger before it fails. I personally feel bad when I read that someone would make you feel anything other than D1 softball is a failure and I hope you would not conflate those who promote elite-level softball with those who are just an a$$. It's a beautiful game and I hope you and your daughter make the most out of whatever experience SHE chooses!

 

[manitoudan]

Wow! You said it manitoudan! I never thought I would be happy my when DD was done playing travel ball. I read this entire thread, end to end. Yep I am happy she's done. I have seen and heard many disappointing words from the "newer" Ohio organizations. Think Maybe Little League Softball will find it's way into better talent? The cost is lower and funds are raised by entire communities... May be a future there. Little League was slow on the uptake but I see a future now.... Your thoughts?

I have no idea what you mean or if you are asking me a question , or not .