Catching and Catchers discussion HS catchers calling pitches

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Well said Bear, I agree 100%. My DD (now a senior) has been catching since she was 7, and more times that not, for the same pitcher. She has been calling pitches for HS and travel for two years, at least. The only problem we've ever had was last year with new HS coach, when he placed the blame on her for a meatball over the plate that ended up over fence - when that is not the pitch she called. It's two man (woman) operation out there, and if a experience catcher tells coach that certain pitches aren't working - he should listen!

 

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clueless - It can't be the coaches fault!

 

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My observation from coaching and watching probably about 100 games this past year is that the vast majority of coaches in this age group are calling pitches. If they're not, they're doing a good job of decoying because they're sitting on buckets flashing numbers and/or pointing to locations, and the catchers are looking over at them before they signal the pitcher. It appears to me that the majority of parents and players of these girls, as well as coaches at the younger levels believe high-school aged catchers should be calling the pitches, but in reality it is the coaches of competitive high school and travel teams who are actually calling the pitches for the most part. Am I wrong?

 

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Who is calling the pitches depends on age, the competency of the battery, and confidence from the coach. Young kids 10 - 14 need to be taught how to call a game. I feel that's a VERY important part of the pitcher/catcher skill set. By the time they are 16 - 18, they are much more effective, especially if a pitcher/catcher has come up through a travel team's ranks together. I think it's self-defeating to have a control-freak coach calling pitches all the time, but not teaching in the process.

In college, every batter is charted. Most have another pitcher or assistant calling the game from a book of stats. I'll bet Punch and Stark could give some insight into that.

 

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I emailed Bill (Hillhouse) on this topic. here's a portion of his reply:

As you know I try and encourage pitchers to bring their real catchers and parents so I can help them understand situational pitching (among other things). It's beyond me how a coach sitting on a bucket can make a better call than the battery who's on the field. There's just too many variables that people who've never pitched before cannot know. Ball weight, ball seams, footing on/around the rubber, and overall intuition. Ever notice when a foul ball goes out of play in baseball, pitchers sometimes throw it back and want a new one. That's because they didn't like the ball or feel they can throw a certain pitch with it. It's impossible to throw a pitch with some balls, not every ball is the same.


CC

 

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I think that the catcher and/or pitcher should call the pitches. Period. The catcher has the best view of the field, the batter, and the situation. It also promotes and improves communication between pitcher and catcher. I also wonder what kind of game sense this teaches? A player won't have a coach telling them what to do in every situation, and calling pitches shouldn't be different. If a coach can't be confident in a catcher/pitcher's judgement then that catcher/pitcher isn't qualified to play the position and shouldn't be on the team.

 

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My dd played 14u travel this summer and the coaches asked me to call pitches for her ?"because I knew her better". ?I think it gave my dd a sense of confidence but I hated it--I felt like every hit was my fault and I was letting the entire team down. ?Not to mention that I had not coached or developed a true understanding of how to read the batters. ?

She also played on the high school team this summer where the catcher made the calls. ?It was clear the catcher ( a senior) also didn't have an understanding of how to call pitches when she called for an 0-2 fastball in the heart of the plate which was crushed about 2 feet over my dd's head. ?My dd, a freshman was afraid to challenge the upper classman.

I'm in favor of the catcher calling the pitches if she has good understanding of the game--and the situation. ?I also agree that it is never just one players fault when a particular pitch gets hit. Unless of course it is a meatball..........

 

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I don't think there's any doubt that ideally the catchers SHOULD be calling them. The issue I think is that most catchers at this age level are not students of the game enough to actually do it effectively. Could they learn it from their coaches or from going to pitching lessons with their pitchers - yes, I think some could. But this doesn't happen often for whatever reasons, and I think there are a lot of catchers who have otherwise good skills that just will never get it ... be able to think about the strengths and weaknesses of the different pitchers they catch, the strengths and weaknesses of the many batters they face, and certainly not notice that the ball has a different feel, etc. Lets face it - we are talking about teen aged girls here, most of whom have other things going on with their lives, and 80-90% of them are just not going to have either the interest and/or capability and/or coaching to learn this. Would really be interested in getting the perspective of JoeA or the Bear or others on this one.

 

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I think the Bear already gave her perspective on this question.

I have my thoughts, but I?ll tell you what my daughter told me. ?My daughter is going to pitch 18u in 2007. ?I asked her who she would rather have calling pitches, and she preferred the catcher. ?She said that she thought the catcher had a much better feel for how she is pitching that day, and had a better feel for the batters and for the umpire. ?She thought it was hard for the coach to have that same ?feel? from the dugout. ?She also liked that she and the catcher together were responsible for pitch selection and the results. ?She felt more free to talk honestly to the catcher between innings, than the coach. ?

 

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I think the Bear already gave her perspective on this question....

We haven't met, have we , but as you note I did reply earlier see: Bear's Thoughts

 

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Not to get off track, but I'd like to present a case for the importance of teaching your catcher the skills needed to call an effective game.

Pitching in high school was a frustrating experience for my daughter. She had a very inexperience catcher who had little or no exposure to travel ball - very motivated - but not skilled. Try as they might, they just never really got into a groove. She spent so much time shaking off pitches that it destroyed any rhythm and flow needed to be an effective battery. I'm not sure her coach would have improved the situation by calling the pitches, either.

Fortunately, she had a very good travel ball catcher, and they communicated very well with each other. My daughter is very good at remembering characteristics of batters she has faced before - even from previous tournaments.

I don't remember a single game of summer travel ball where her coach called the game from a bucket. Before every game during warm-ups, my daughter and her catcher talked about what she felt comfortable throwing that particular game. Then, during a game, my daughter had the green light to shake off a pitch she didn't think would work, or change the called pitch to whatever pitch she felt would work. Even so, she rarely shook off a pitch with this catcher, because the catcher was so good at reading how my daughter's pitches were working. Both of them didn't just learn this overnight. It came from several years of experience (the school of hard knocks!).

An experienced, skilled catcher at the high school level who can call a game is worth their weight in gold. They can make or break the best of pitchers. Like someone said, most of the time the pitcher gets the glory. I think a great catcher is the invisible hero. The proof was the amazing difference I saw between high school and summer ball.

 

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Oops - Sorry, Bear. ?I don't know where that one came from!!!

 

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That's okay, I needed a chuckle this mornin'. 8)

 

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At least I'm good for a chuckle...

 

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It depends on the catcher's experience. My DD is has been catching since she was 9 (now 14) and has become very good at setting up hitters, provided that she is familiar with the pitcher she is catching. (Her travel team pitchers are VERY good, her school teams and city league pitchers are limited to where even my daughter will take the circle in relief).
That said, I have taken over a HS program and I have been blessed with a very good senior catcher, but she has no experience calling pitches because her previous coaches always called them, but never explained why those certain pitches were called. For Fall Ball I am going to let her call the pitches and we will chart them and use that as feedback, plus my daughter will help "coach" her as to setting up the hitters, and what pitches NOT to call in certain situations.

 

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I wholeheartedly agree with a catcher making or breaking a pitcher. Some catchers don't like to call moving pitches because they have a difficult time fielding them. I know of a catcher that only called fast balls and changeups. She came across as a great catcher because she didn't miss many of them. However, it caused more opportunities for the batters to hit the ball.

 

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Want a great link for a pitcher/catcher call chart. ?http://www.windpitch.com/PitcherCatcherChart.html I have coached travel ball for eight years and was a catcher myself. ?I was excited to find this for my own daughter a couple of years ago. ?As she has progressed through the years, we have worked on a nine point strike zone and she undertands what pitch to throw when and the various scenarios to look for at any given time. ?She has the majority of this chart memorized to a point that it is now automatic. ?The only time I don't let her call pitches is when we have a tight game and I need to call in pitches to ensure certain batters are not given the chance to obtain good hits or in need of a specific pitch to obtain a defensive objective. ?I really advise a coach to keep a hit chart on each batter and location of the final pitch that resulted in an out or if a hard/deep hit was obtained where to and what pitch was called. ?We use a three sign system that allows the type of pitch, height location, and width location to be used in the nine point box. ?Requires a pitcher that can hit their spots. ?This chart can really help coaches and catchers alike obtain a better understanding of situational pitching.

 

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As a high school and travel ball coach, almost all of your GOOD coaches call the pitches and location. This includes HS, travel, college, and yes, even the national team. Good coaches keep accurate pitching charts and know exactly what each hitter did previously and on what pitch.

Personally, I call approxiamtely 80-90% of the pitches, but I do give my experienced pitchers the ability to shake off and throw their pitch. This may happen 3-4 times per game. They also know that at crunch time, in close games or important situations, they throw the pitch called.

Our game has become much more sophisiticated and automated in recert years. There is no way a catcher can have the information available to the coaches and be the best qualified to make this important decisions. They have a difficult enough job simply being the catcher.

IF you watch college, Olympic, and even major league baseball games, you'll see the catcher looking over to the dugout to get the call. If Stacy Nuveman and Jason LaRue are not calling pitches, it seems reasonable that most high school age catchers should be relying on prepared coaches for this responsibility.

 

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Many posters here mentioned it. The trend is toward catchers NOT calling games. They have way to much going on to perform their job properly + the staff has the benefit of stats, charts, etc.. Who called the NCAA Championship game? The staff of both Arizona & Northwestern. It has nothing to do with control freaks at all. The staff in the dugout has the most data. Period. Do football coaches allow their Quarterbacks and Running Backs to call the plays. No. Sure they could change a play at the line and so can a pitcher shake off a pitch.

With advancement in technology (ex. Computers in the dugout, etc.) those in the know are calling the pitches from the dugout and quess what, the catcher's have a less stress, better performance game for they know that the staff in the dugout has much more information at their disposal than she does in her memory (what did this girl do last time? I can't remember! Where are the holes in her swing? I can't focus on that and the game!).

This is a great topic but like anything in life things go through cycles and the cycle on this subject, no matter how outstanding a catcher, is very clear ...the staff calls the game (or to someone else's point the dugout calls the game, which could include a pitcher that is resting but has the benefit of all the hitter's data right in front of them). Of course, the pitcher and the catcher sit together between innings and talk about what is working, what is not with the dugout staff.

Ask any catcher who has had experience both ways and to a girl, they will tell you it is much better when the dugout calls the game (assuming that you have a staffer that knows what they are doing and gets feedback from the battery every inning - what was working in inning one may not be working by inning seven).

Good topic ... this comment is made based on high level travel, college view point.

The reverse could be true for high school where an experienced battery is being coached by an inexperienced staff (who may have never called a game in their life) and it is best for them to do what they know works for the two of them and thus they should call the game.

 

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I agree that the dugout calling the pitches makes the most sense. ? How can a catcher watch the feet, or swing of a batter to see that she is stepping out, has a swooping swing, etc. ?So that along with the other previously mentioned great examples by other posts seems to make this an easy one. ?But, sometimes the catcher and pitcher need to be able to communicate own their own call. ?A quick pitch on a batter that is stepping out, with out getting time out called, is a good example. ?So I do believe the catcher should be trained too. ?And don't forget to train the pitcher to know the best ptich to throw batters in all situations. ?The pitcher should ulimately be in control. ?As stated she knows the conditions of the mound, which pitches she is throwing well, etc. ?She can make the best judgement to what will work the best for her.

The part about a coach in high school or whereever not knowing what to call in the situation is another can of worms. There are some that know how to call the game and others that don't have a clue. ?:'(