Rule should be eliminated or made more clear

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Unless he warned them in ground rules before the game.... I mean that might be what the umpire did.

 

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Warnings during the plate conference shouldn't have any bearing and don't carry any weight.

If a rule prescibes a warning to be issued before a penalty is enforced, then the only valid warning is one that comes because the rule was actually violated during the game.

 

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Question for Bret - When a call like this happens (a "mythical" call that cannot be supported in the rules) how should a coach respectfully approach the umpire about it? Is it acceptable to ask for an explanation, and to what point is the umpire obligated to provide an explanation?

As long as everyone is doing it "the right way" no umpire should ever refuse a coach's request for an explnantion of a call.

By "the right way" I mean that the coach should first request time and wait for it to be granted before entering the field of play or approaching the umpire. Then, BOTH the umpire and the coach need to be civil about. I would have no problem whatsoever explaining ANY call or answering ANY question if a coach approached me this way.

On the other hand, random screaming and complaints from the dugout are generally going to be ignored. If you want to ask me something, then request time and we'll talk about it. Screaming at me from the dugout fifty feet away, while a dugout full of coaches and players are screaming other things over top of you, does not facilitate COMMUNICATION. And a coach who comes angrily storming toward me from his position (either from the dugout or a coach's box) is going to get even less leeway.

Okay, suppose the coach stays calm, gets time, then approaches the umpire. The umpire should listen to the coach's question, without interupting him, to make sure he understands exactly what point needs to be addressed.

Then, give your explanation or answer. You should be brief and to the point, not argumentative or opinionated. You should give a sound reasoning of why you ruled the way you did and, if it's a question about a rule interpretation, be prepared to give the rule (not necessarily the exact rule number, or quote the rule verbatim from the rule book, but at least be able to paraphrase the rule and give the gist of it).

At this point, the coach will either agree or disagree with what you told him.

If what we're discussing was a judgment call (fair/foul, catch/no catch, safe/out on a tag play, etc.) then the umpire's judgment is final. Anything further from the coach is likely to be answered with something like, "We're done here, Coach. Let's play ball".

If it is the misinterpretation of a playing rule- and the rules you're playing under afford the coach the luxury of filing an official protest- if the coach thinks the umpire has it wrong he may make his protest known at that time.

Unfortunately, in Ohio (and many other states) high school softball does not permit protests (most travel ball tournaments do, so it is the coach's best interests to understand how to properly file an official protest. My experience is that most do not).

All a coach can really do in a high school softball game in Ohio is plead his case and offer his opinion of what the correct rule really should be. If he can offer the correct rule, that might make the umpire see the error of his ways. The light bulb might go off and he might realize that he has it wrong. He might be unsure enough to check with his partner about the rule and his partner might be able to set him straight. Then they can correct their mistake.

Without a viable protest procedure in place, that's all a coach can really do. If the umpires won't budge, you're stuck with whatever they come up with. Once they let you know that their decision is final...any further agruing just puts you on thin ice and can reduce the chances of you sticking around to witness the rest of the ballgame.

 

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the solution is soooo simple, dont touch or assist until she crosses the plate...

Why is that the solution??? It is not a rule???? That's like saying always get 4 outs in an inning and you wont have to worry about the umpires forgetting about 1 of them.... Sounds stupid doesn't it.. Well so is following rules that do not exist...

 

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All a coach can really do in a high school softball game in Ohio is plead his case and offer his opinion of what the correct rule really should be. If he can offer the correct rule, that might make the umpire see the error of his ways. The light bulb might go off and he might realize that he has it wrong. He might be unsure enough to check with his partner about the rule and his partner might be able to set him straight. Then they can correct their mistake.

Without a viable protest procedure in place, that's all a coach can really do. If the umpires won't budge, you're stuck with whatever they come up with. Once they let you know that their decision is final...any further agruing just puts you on thin ice and can reduce the chances of you sticking around to witness the rest of the ballgame.

Great explanation. Coaches should have a copy of this explanation at every game. If the coach could've explained to the umpire that it is only a rule in college, not in high school, it may have put enough doubt in the umpire's head to not make such a ruling. Saying it is not a rule may not be enough, but offering the correct rule, as bretman suggested may have helped. As a coach, I don't think that I could have an umpire call an opposing's team over-the-fence home run an out, even it was a rule. I guess I would make a terrible coach, but I don't think I could do it because it just seems wrong.

On the other hand, I'm amazed by the coaches who want to keep arguing a call. They are just wasting their breath. Why make it any more difficult to win the game? A coach needs to make his/her point then move on. If a coach spends too much time arguing a call or getting angry, he can end up looking like a raving lunatic.

I think a while ago somebody posted a list of softball rule myths (or something to that affect.) An even more helpful list may be a top 10 list and what to say to the umpire to get the right call. For example,
Myth: The hands are part of the bat.
Rule: "If batter is hit anywhere on the body, including the hands, while swinging at a pitch a strike is called."

 

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Why is that the solution??? It is not a rule???? That's like saying always get 4 outs in an inning and you wont have to worry about the umpires forgetting about 1 of them.... Sounds stupid doesn't it.. Well so is following rules that do not exist...

I can see Anniball's point. If as Bretman said "That a runner is out just for being touched by a player or coach is an age-old RULE MYTH. Yet it is a myth that just won't die." Even though it is not a rule, you wouldn't want an uniformed umpire costing you the game.

I guess my experiences in a league with inexperienced umpires have colored my view. When it ends up costing you the game, you learn to play on the conservative side and not have players touch the batter because it's just not worth the risk. It is very frustrating to say the least. We once had an umpire tell us on a very hot and sunny day that all girls on our team had to not only wear the same visor, but since only 8 girls had visors, none could wear them. These young girls didn't own sunglasses so it would've been very helpful for them to have visors. There were other times that girls got called out for leaving early because the umpire didn't understand the rocker step or because they misinterpreted the look back rule. You just learn to make adjustments, even for "rules that aren't rules." Now I would expect more from high school umpires, but after reading about this incident I wouldn't want to tempt fate. Just don't seem the harm in waiting until the girl touches the plate before the team starts celebrating. It'll just get em ready for college where it actually is a rule.

 

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its so simple why does it have to be a rule? if they do it this way, there is no problem..or question.

 

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George... I agree in most situations....why argue. Except the opposing coach came out and argued and won! That coach is just as responsible for the call as the umpire. In her case, it paid to argue with the umpire. Unfortunately, this happens more than it should.

 

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Hey folks

Don't blame the Granville coach. She was stung by the rule a couple of games before and she just wanted to share the love. Anyway, get off the karma gig. You have Lakewood coming and a stalled offense. It won't be pretty.

 

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I do see the point.. It is better to win by acknowledging this myth than to lose by it...... but that thinking is the exact reason why it is still a myth and as long as coaches keep telling there girls to play by a rule that is not there then the myth will remain and it will eventually sneak up and bite someone who knows the rules, and so, never teaches his girls to play by rules that arent there, and guess what happens.. This incident keeps rearing it ugly head...

So please do not teach girls to play by fake rules... instead coaches make it a point to talk with OHSAA, umpires before games etc and lets get this cleared up, not ignore it and skip around it.. It is already on my agenda at next years District meeting as a point for umpires to focus on next season.. Informing umpires, coaches etc. Is the key to dispelling this myth, not jumping through hoops to make sure you dont get it called on you..

Think about it.. if every coach and umpire in your District have this rule brought to their attention, it will be very less likely to happen. Yeah yeah, I know it may still happen a few more times before everyone knows the rule but make it a point... not a myth!!!

 

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If she was stung by the rule recently and did some research why would she raise the same bogus argument now in favor of her team...hmmmm, a perplexing question of ones character isn't it?

 

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The call is wrong but 1) why didn't the coach keep the players back until all runners touched home and 2) a little preventative umpiring for the plate umpire, if the coach isn't keeping the ladies back you can tell them to step back until everyone touches the plate. A half second delay in giving a high five would have prevented the situation from arising. I understand you want to celebrate but wait to do it.

 

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i really don't get it, A team and an individual gets unduely penalized and people on here suggest the girl and the team do something to fit this dumb ___ umpires unwritten rule !!! Cmon' wait to celebrate ? whats next no chants ? well........... MD

 

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Perhaps she could read the umpires disdain for Desales. Maybe too much celebrating early on, and maybe he umpired this team before? Teams have reputations that follow them, and umpires have great memories.

 

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yeah an early high five on a lead off homerun deserves the "watch out for me , i'm in control here" blue. thats just stupid. MD

 

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Not just a high five there Dan, a little bit more on the obnoxious side. One thing was for sure, that call unplugged their offense.

 

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well heck --tell us all the full scoop so we can accurately know what happened. I was commenting based on what was reported . If there is more to the story , let's hear it. MD

 

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Dan, that celebration of the entire team on home plate lasted for seemingly thirty seconds, and was something that I haven't seen in a long time. I was surprised that the umpire could see the batter-runner touch home plate, and again, I thought it was a celebration that would be reserved for a game winner in the bottom of the seventh. I don't mind congratulations at home plate, but after a while it becomes offensive to the opposing team, and I believe this celebration was intended to have that effect. I just think this celebration bothered Granville, the umpire (possibly again), and it stung Desales because it was up to his interpretation of the rule. I personally liked the call even though it was not one I had seen applied before. Maybe it was used as a disciplinary action.

 

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My team last year (Or the year before) Got a Warning about that. The Ump told us we had to wait to give our teammate high fives and Pat her on the back until she crossed the plate. (Which i think is kinda stupid)
Why does it matter, Its not like we are running out to her while she is rounding 2nd..haha. i just don't get it.

 

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Hey Brettman, what is the rule on that. We had it called in the ASA 12U World Series in Normal Ill last year. Now the catcher asked the umpire and the umpire called the girl out. Is it a situation where you have to ask or is it just bull ****? Just curious...thanks Brettman.