Why all of the Confusion?

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This last weekend, we were at a NSA tournament. ?In the first inning, our catcher gets on base and we send in a courtesy runner that is currently not in the game (a player who is listed as a substitute but has not been in the game yet as a registered substitute). ?The umpire told us that the courtesy runner had to be the last out. ?Well, when in Rome, do as the Romans. ?

Later in the tournament, we were told the same thing but I stuck to my guns and was allowed to use our courtesy runner (a player not currently in the game).

Am I missing something?

In my original post, I was straying from the topic so I deleted some of it.

 

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wvan,

The umpire must have had a test last week on the international tie breaker rule. Sounds like he is thoroughly confused.

I am sure that the courtesy runner is permitted for the pitcher or catcher as long as that runner is not batting in the game. I am trying to find the rule in NSA book, but can't put my finger on it.

 

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NSA rule 4-6-f:

f. COURTESY RUNNER: The player in the batting order where the
last out was recorded or any player not currently in the game may
replace the current (the player physically playing the position when
the 3rd out was recorded) pitcher or catcher as a courtesy runner at
any time. The pitcher or catcher will remain in the game and the
courtesy runner will retain all substitution rights (if the courtesy runner
has substitution rights). A player can be used only once per inning as a
courtesy runner. Should the player that made the last recorded out
be on base for any reason, or batting or has already been a courtesy
runner in that inning; the new courtesy runner would be determined by
going back previous outs to the next allowable courtesy runner or to any
player not currently in the game. If in the first inning a courtesy
runner is used for either the pitcher or the catcher (who are listed in
the line up when the line ups are turned in) and there are no outs
recorded, the courtesy runner will be the player furthest removed from
the pitcher or catcher needing the courtesy runner or any player not
currently in the game. The pitcher or catcher must bat and reach base
legally in order to be eligible for a courtesy runner. PENALTY:
Using the wrong courtesy runner is a violation of the illegal player
rule, Refer to Rule4 Sec. 6.
NOTE: The pitcher or catcher may be used as a courtesy runner

 

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Thanks Bretman.

I would say unless some of the special circumstances were present, this umpire was wrong.

 

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After the weekend I seen with some umpires I think they should all be retested. I seen a play where a girl trapped the ball on the ground and the runner was called out ?and when the girl picked up her glove the ball stayed on the ground. When questioned the ump said that she didn't need to pick it up and show him in the book where it said that she did. I looked it up and found on page 77 that said they must have control of the ball with the glove or hand and that even if a girl catches it in her folded arms it is not a catch until it is in her glove or hands. Did I miss something.

 

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The umpires are paid very well and should know the rules.There were 2 blown rules calls in the spirit power game saturday cost the spirit 3 runs.Umpires are human and you dont mind a missed call but NO EXCUSE FOR NOT KNOWING THE RULES.

 

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What I notice guru is that when you ask them a simple question, they become very defensive, like you are questioning their manhood (or womanhood) or something. ?I have seen umpires lose control of games because of their demeanor towards both teams, in some cases. ? ?I have also seen good umpires who keep control of highly competitive games by staying cool. ?I guess the same could be said about some coaches, some are professional and others lose control easily. ?But not knowing the rules is totally unacceptable. ?I think some of them say "show me the rule book" hoping no one has one.

 

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Our team played in a tourney where the umpire totally blew this rule. He said "show me the rule" so I did and between the two of them they interpreted it incorrectly. The next day the umpire and I reviewed the situation with the umpire and chief of the tourney. He was told he was dead wrong. The problem comes that umpire switch ASA to NSA to USSSA to Pony and just slight rule changes get mixed up. This rule is one that is confusing for even myself as a coach in the different santioning bodies.

 

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Wouldn't it be nice if someone would come up with a table of major differences in rules between ASA, NSA, USSSA, High School, etc for officials to be able to review before a tourney. I'd love to see the UIC have a laminated copy at tourneys.

By the way, I'd love one too. I don't want to have to read all of each associations rules. I know ASA, but not USSSA, NSA very well.

 

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I saw a game this weekend where the umpire made a call of illegal bats because of a new ASA rule he quoted, problem was that it was an NSA tournament (no similar rule). Game was delayed until they got it cleared up and then the same umpire blew a call for a girl taking a helmet off (when asked he shouted at the coach for questioning his call ... which was wrong).

Few people have a problem with judgement calls since they seem to even out, but not knowing the rules is pretty bad.

 

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Wv, you should?ve put the bigger blown call in this game. We had runners at 1st and 2nd, ball is hit to our second baseman who gets clobbered by the runner on 1st. Interference, problem is neither umpire was watching the ball. Just about got tossed for this one?

 

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Stingray, I originally had it in there but I thought I might be straying a bit so I took it out.
On the humorous side, there was a rather senior plate umpire at this tournament. From what we saw, he didn't make any bad calls but even if he did, I don't think anyone would have argued with someone that was like your grandfather.?

 

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Stingray,

From what you described, you'd love playing in New York. We had a similar situation but our player came up with the ball and threw to first getting the batter by about 2-3 steps for the third out (not close at all) we win. Oops, neither umpire was watching the ball so they ruled the girl safe and both runs score, we lose. Sorry but nobody saw the play, have a nice ride home.

 

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Ptwboom, that must have been a long ride. I've had rides like that. Fortunately for us, the play didn?t really affect the outcome of the game, and it was only pool play.

Since I gave the worst job of the weekend, I?ll also give the best job of the weekend. Girl steals third, beats the throw. Falls backwards off the base, with her legs in the air. Our third baseman tags her again. Plate umpire calls her safe. We talk it over with the plate umpire, he asks for help from the base umpire and they rule her out. This play would have cost us the game.

 

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Since we are on the subject and i need to vent a little lets run this one by everyone. Mind your not sour grapes as my girls did not desearve to win this game but a screwed up call anyway. Bases loaded one out 7-1 game. My nine hitter hits a high pop between the pitcher and third baseman. ?Neither ASA umpires ?says a word. Ball hits pitchers mitt and falls out still nothing said runner on third starts down line pitcher picks up ball umpire now says infield fly rule. Pitcher throws to catcher for tag and ruled a double play. I argue that the umpire has to give a verbal immediately not after everything i mentioned. Home plate umpire says the base umpire was giving the hand signal and thats all that is needed it says nothing about giving a verbal in the rule book. I am told to get in dugout. When we are up to bat next i calmly go out and again discuss matter with umpires . This time they ?admit they should have given a verbal but its overwith now. The killer is i start out that next inning with basehit and a double. ?Any comments on this one??

 

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"Any comments?"

They blew it.

The proper ASA mechanic is to both point and verbally announce the infield fly. In fact, that same mechanic applies for FED, NSA, USSA...and for baseball, too!

But, there is something else to point out. Since these guys didn't have this basic, basic mechanic down pat, it's doubtful they know the proper procedure to follow when an infield fly is not announced by the umpire.

Despite not calling it properly, the infield fly rule is still in effect. There is some burden upon the players and coaches to know when it applies and when it doesn't.

If, in the umpires judgement, the failure to call the infield fly caused a disadvantage for either team, then it is within their power to correct the problem.

This can be done by placing runners on their previous base or crediting outs, depending upon which team was put at a disadvantage.

The umpires could have done this at their discretion. Instead, they chose to gloss over their mistake by claiming to have done things right, when they weren't done correctly at all.

 

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In a game we had on Monday night a girl was hit with the ball by our pitcher. This was an U12 silver travel league with the girl throwing about 38 mph. Not a super fast pitch by any means. Well, the batter made no attempt to get out of the way. I asked the umpire about the call. He said she was hit by the pitch and gets first base. I next inquired as to the rule and stating that she needs to try to get out of the way of the pitch. He said something like the pitch was too fast and he didn't think she could move fast enough. I let it go at that. The next inning our pitcher bounced one that hit the girl in the leg. He called it a ball. The batter here again didn't try to move. The other coach was upset about it. I believe the second call by the umpire was the correct call. He also blew a call at home plate. It was a passed ball and the runner on third came home. The batter didn't move out of the batters box. Our catcher threw the ball to the plate and it hit the batter allowing the run to score. I said to the ump that the runner should be out for obstruction to our players by the batter. He didn't say anything about it. He said it stands as called. I stated again that it should be obstruction and let it go. The next time there was a play at the plate he pulled the batters out of the way. I was happy to see this so that no one was hurt. But, this seems to tell me that he blew the other call. Tell me if I am wrong, but both of these cases seem to me to be a bad call by the ump because he didn't know or follow the rules? You would think for the money they get they would know the rules and follow them.

 

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gelvans64, How much are you paying for umpiring. It could be the old consumer saying-"you get what you pay for." But since you are a consumer (a team in a league that is paying money), I should think that you should bring it up to the league representatives and demand competent umpiring (let's not confuse competency with personality conflicts). Whether you fall upon deaf ears is a different issue. It all comes down to money and if you raise a big enough stink, then your league will find good umpires.

 

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Glevans64,

Since you took the time to post, I'll take the time to give you a couple of answers.

1) Your pitcher hit a batter: Have to be there to see the play, but the attempt to get out of the way is a judgement call. For younger players, if the pitch comes straight in at the batter sometimes all they can do is freeze. Strictly judgement. However, unless the batter does something that looks like she purposely moved into the pitch, the batter should get the benefit of the doubt. After all, it was the pitcher that missed her target, not the batters fault.

Without seeing the pitch, I'll have to give you an "undecided" on that one!

2) Ball bounces into the batter: On a bouncing ball, the umpire should give even more benefit of the doubt to the batter. A bouncing ball can bounce in any direction and can be impossible for a batter to predict.

Unless the batter stands as still as a statue on a pitch that bounces well before the plate, the batter will almost always get first on a pitch in the dirt that hits her.

It almost sounds like the umpire was "evening out" his calls, making up for the first one where he awaded first base. No way of knowing for sure, but that is a huge "no-no" for any umpire calling a game.

Again, it's umpire judgement and, since I didn't see the play, another "undecided"!

3) Play at plate, ball hits batter while in batters box: Still some "had to be there" to this one. On a passed ball or wild pitch, there is no absolute requirement for the batter to vacate the batters box.

The key to this play is whether or not the batter touching the ball is judged to be intentional.

The batter is required to make an attempt to get out of the way, whether she stays in the batters box or not. More of that "umpire judgement" on this one!

Add in the fact that a WP or PB is a mis-play by the defense. The ball can be rattling around behind the batter, making it hard for her to see where the ball is and which way she needs to move to clear out. Also, if the ball doesn't go very far and the play happens quickly, the batter may not have ample time to get out of the way.

If the batter makes any attempt to get out of the way at all, and being hit by the throw is not judged to be intentional, then there is no penalty here.

So, yet another "undecided"!

One thing I can tell you for certain- this is not "obstruction"!

Obstruction is an infraction committed by the defense. When the offense impedes a defensive play, the correct call is "interference".

4) Umpire pulls batter out of way on play at plate: that's just flat-out wrong. The umpire should never interject himself into a play and affect the outcome.

Well intentioned, maybe. But bad form for an umpire.

Now that we have a good "crummy umpire" thread going, maybe I'll start a "bone-headed" coaches thread to balance things out. Present company excluded! ??;D

 

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bretman thanks for the clarification. ?I was trying to extract this from the umpire, but he didn't want to talk about it.