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Finally! I've been preaching for a long time to do something with the bats. It's about time. The game will be safer for some key players (posiitons) and we'll get to see who the real hitters are.
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catsbats said:
Why not, the whole reason we went to composite in the first place, cost. ?The life of a wooden bat can be as short as 1 swing. ?To much cost involved. ?I know I'm not going to keep buying bats if they keep breaking.
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A composite bat can be made just as dead as a wooden bat, the difference is in it's lifespan. There is no reason why we should revert back to wood.
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sgf67 said:
I'll give you a good reason...ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ[smiley=2vrolijk_08.gif]
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So if I understand correctly, ALL current composite bats will be banned after a brief grandfather period?
I can not even venture a guess as to the cost of replacement of all these bats which will effect players at all levels of our sport. There are millions of bats out there bought and paid for which will become useless? That is crazy.
I am also waiting for a documented study which would support that there is a major increase in injuries which can be attributed to the exit speed issue solely. I feel this is a knee jerk reaction to a situation which is mostly perceived not documented.
Furthermore, if in fact there is an issue, it would make much more sense to regulate the problem through the ball specifications as that is a yearly cost anyway.
Following is the reply to this post on the college web site which makes sense. I have been around this game for 25 years and I still question the reality that the injury occurance has increase by percentage not just numbers because of increased participation.
"If that data were out there, your Bollinger rates would have gone through the roof. ?NO ONE reacts more quickly to actuarial data than an insurance company.
The fact that liability rates are basically unchanged speaks eloquently to the "real" nature of the problem, IMO. ?But many judge otherwise."
I can not even venture a guess as to the cost of replacement of all these bats which will effect players at all levels of our sport. There are millions of bats out there bought and paid for which will become useless? That is crazy.
I am also waiting for a documented study which would support that there is a major increase in injuries which can be attributed to the exit speed issue solely. I feel this is a knee jerk reaction to a situation which is mostly perceived not documented.
Furthermore, if in fact there is an issue, it would make much more sense to regulate the problem through the ball specifications as that is a yearly cost anyway.
Following is the reply to this post on the college web site which makes sense. I have been around this game for 25 years and I still question the reality that the injury occurance has increase by percentage not just numbers because of increased participation.
"If that data were out there, your Bollinger rates would have gone through the roof. ?NO ONE reacts more quickly to actuarial data than an insurance company.
The fact that liability rates are basically unchanged speaks eloquently to the "real" nature of the problem, IMO. ?But many judge otherwise."
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Spirit1 said:
How many people have ever turned in a claim on their Bollinger insurance? ?I would be willing to bet that 95% of the travel ball parents or players, do not even know that secondary insurance has been made available to them. ?I know of several times that my DD was hurt during a game requiring medical attention, and was unaware that she had secondary insurance. ?Most people already have insurance, so the Bollinger insurance is unneccasary, and an added cost.
The point I'm trying to make, is that if no one is filing claims, the insurance rates will not go up. ?So its not a good measuring stick as to how many injuries are occuring in fastpitch softball.
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You think that the insurance industry doesn't follow trends based on industry wide data? If each company only set their rates based on their own data they would leave themselves in a very risky position.
Furthermore Bollinger IS in the business of insuring teams, organizations and tournamnets nationwide and beleive that they are very aware of the incidence of risk involved.
I am not saying that this is the only indicator in the equation but, I would certainly buy into the fact that safety is such a issue that we have to change the sport. Until then I will contend that based off past information that our sport continues to be one of the safest that our athletes compete in.
On another note regarding changes to the sport. Move the rubber back for saftey and more offense, deaden the bat for more safety and less offense, move the bases back for more safety and what would prbably be less offense, lower the ball compression for more safety and less offense, use technology for more offense, move the fences back for less offense, on and on. I contend the sport is pretty darn good as it is and we should leave it alone, for the most part.
By the way, you want the game safer? Move the rubber in and let the pitcher dominate. That makes just about as much sense.
Furthermore Bollinger IS in the business of insuring teams, organizations and tournamnets nationwide and beleive that they are very aware of the incidence of risk involved.
I am not saying that this is the only indicator in the equation but, I would certainly buy into the fact that safety is such a issue that we have to change the sport. Until then I will contend that based off past information that our sport continues to be one of the safest that our athletes compete in.
On another note regarding changes to the sport. Move the rubber back for saftey and more offense, deaden the bat for more safety and less offense, move the bases back for more safety and what would prbably be less offense, lower the ball compression for more safety and less offense, use technology for more offense, move the fences back for less offense, on and on. I contend the sport is pretty darn good as it is and we should leave it alone, for the most part.
By the way, you want the game safer? Move the rubber in and let the pitcher dominate. That makes just about as much sense.
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Sprit,
If that one person who took the line shot in the face or temple was a member of your family you might have a different perspective. Had a young player who required 3 reconstructive surgeries on her nose to rebuild it due to a softball in the face. She was a pitcher. Daughter was a pitcher. Took 2 off the leg (Rocket Techs) and stopped two right at her face in the course of 8 years. Many others were near misses.
Daughter lined one at a 3rd basemen who didnt move. Drilled her right in the chest. Crumpled to the ground screaming in pain as my daughter watched in horror and cried for the girl. She thought she was going to die.
As for the cost of a wood bat. They are not cheap either. 40 years ago I could get one at True Value Hardware for about 10 bucks. Now they cost 50 - 70. They dont need to eliminate them just tone them down a bit and quit making the -10 drops. Baseball uses a -3 drop in HS down here in Texas. Dont know what it is in Ohio. The heavy bat will slow down some of those swings but its still not a solution to the real problem. The players in softball are too close to the hitters. Both corners and the pitchers.
Elliott.
If that one person who took the line shot in the face or temple was a member of your family you might have a different perspective. Had a young player who required 3 reconstructive surgeries on her nose to rebuild it due to a softball in the face. She was a pitcher. Daughter was a pitcher. Took 2 off the leg (Rocket Techs) and stopped two right at her face in the course of 8 years. Many others were near misses.
Daughter lined one at a 3rd basemen who didnt move. Drilled her right in the chest. Crumpled to the ground screaming in pain as my daughter watched in horror and cried for the girl. She thought she was going to die.
As for the cost of a wood bat. They are not cheap either. 40 years ago I could get one at True Value Hardware for about 10 bucks. Now they cost 50 - 70. They dont need to eliminate them just tone them down a bit and quit making the -10 drops. Baseball uses a -3 drop in HS down here in Texas. Dont know what it is in Ohio. The heavy bat will slow down some of those swings but its still not a solution to the real problem. The players in softball are too close to the hitters. Both corners and the pitchers.
Elliott.
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Elliott,
Please do not estimate my concern for my players, your players, my daughter when she was still playing or your daughter. I have tremendous concern for player saftey but, not knowing how many games your daughter played over eight years or what your daughter's talent level was, I would say that actually being hit twice in the legs over eight years is pretty reasonable rick factor, In my opinion.
A bigger problem I see is the expanding participation at younger and younger ages which puts players at risk before they are ready. Also the expansion of travel ball at all ages increases the pool of players to a point where parity is in question. An example I see here in Ohio and other places are high school teams or rec teams participating in tournaments which matches them against elite teams who are much more talented and skilled causing them to be at greater risk.
Please do not estimate my concern for my players, your players, my daughter when she was still playing or your daughter. I have tremendous concern for player saftey but, not knowing how many games your daughter played over eight years or what your daughter's talent level was, I would say that actually being hit twice in the legs over eight years is pretty reasonable rick factor, In my opinion.
A bigger problem I see is the expanding participation at younger and younger ages which puts players at risk before they are ready. Also the expansion of travel ball at all ages increases the pool of players to a point where parity is in question. An example I see here in Ohio and other places are high school teams or rec teams participating in tournaments which matches them against elite teams who are much more talented and skilled causing them to be at greater risk.
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Hot bats have made it possible for hitters with poor mechanics to still drive the ball. 
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Spirit Stated:
[highlight]A bigger problem I see is the expanding participation at younger and younger ages which puts players at risk before they are ready. Also the expansion of travel ball at all ages increases the pool of players to a point where parity is in question.[/highlight]
I dont disagree with your statement at all. This is becoming pretty common down here in the South, Southwest and western parts of the country. I think ASA is to blame as much as anyone for putting in the 43 foot plate for 18U gold. I dont think they realized what kind of impact it would have on players jumping levels to be seen by college coaches.
I attended the 18U gold tournament in OKC this past summer. Most of the California teams had 18 to 20 players on their roster. A number of those girls were younger than 18U. Many of them did not get to play at the tournament but they were there for the exposure. They know if they are on that team and the team has a reputation for being solid they will get a scholorship offer. Call them "Developmental" players who support the "Starters" They also know their time will come if they continue on with the team.
The parents know DD will get a scholorship. Pretty good deal as a coach if you can keep a young talent pool away from the competition and continue to win at the same time knowing your developing a replacement for those girls who are leaving. The key being as a coach you have to be there for a long time and develop a reputation for getting kids scholorships.
Elliott.
[highlight]A bigger problem I see is the expanding participation at younger and younger ages which puts players at risk before they are ready. Also the expansion of travel ball at all ages increases the pool of players to a point where parity is in question.[/highlight]
I dont disagree with your statement at all. This is becoming pretty common down here in the South, Southwest and western parts of the country. I think ASA is to blame as much as anyone for putting in the 43 foot plate for 18U gold. I dont think they realized what kind of impact it would have on players jumping levels to be seen by college coaches.
I attended the 18U gold tournament in OKC this past summer. Most of the California teams had 18 to 20 players on their roster. A number of those girls were younger than 18U. Many of them did not get to play at the tournament but they were there for the exposure. They know if they are on that team and the team has a reputation for being solid they will get a scholorship offer. Call them "Developmental" players who support the "Starters" They also know their time will come if they continue on with the team.
The parents know DD will get a scholorship. Pretty good deal as a coach if you can keep a young talent pool away from the competition and continue to win at the same time knowing your developing a replacement for those girls who are leaving. The key being as a coach you have to be there for a long time and develop a reputation for getting kids scholorships.
Elliott.
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When pitchers get hit by the ball?where do you think the ball was pitched? Inside, outside, high or low or maybe just maybe over and in the middle of the plate?
After high school you will never see another fast ball as most coaches pitch on two planes in/out and up/down and never over the plate unless it?s a mistake.
When I see coaches move their corners in as far as they do YOU the coach and player do so at your own peril! Sometimes common sense should prevail as many of you know who you are coaching against and what a particular hitter is capable of doing with ANY bat.
A lot of hitters no longer are swinging down or level on the ball but are matching the plane of the pitch keeping the hands above the ball witch produces a ball leaving the bat at an angle of 8 to 26 degrees. If the ball is not struck exactly in the middle or is a little above or below the middle you are going to get a shot in the infield possibly 2 to 4 feet high and hard no matter what bat is being used, dead or new bat makes no difference.
This type of swing, a linear weight shift using rotational mechanics, taught by Candrea and Enquist see Right View Pro Intro Mike and Sue and used by most NPF and International player?s produces bat speeds of 76 to 78 MPH which is what Crystl swings. Pujols swings 86.99 MPH as tested last year and reported in GQ magazine, I think in Sept. or Oct. last year and also check out his vision range and vision testing by Dr. Bill Harrison included in the article.
We are measuring our girls now and getting 58 to 72 MPH and they are getting better as they improve their hitting techniques. I receive bats to test from Louisville, Mizuno, and Schutt so our kids can try before they buy and use at tournaments and high school. With bat speeds like that it makes little to no difference what they are swinging; the ball is coming off the bat hard?.it just might not go as far but you may want to stay alert if you are in the infield or a pitcher or are playing in on the corners at less than 25 to 30 feet.
We also teach situational hitting i.e. when to hit down on the ball based on the defensive alignment?if you remember USA vs. Japan this past summer, Crystl put one on the ground past the shortstop at her feet and to the fence and had a stand up double and 2 RBI?s and that was not a mistake, it was planned.
You said it well Lady Knights:Hot bats have made it possible for hitters with poor mechanics to still drive the ball.
When you are pitching inside on a hitter who opens their shoulder to start their swing and the hitter is right handed and your third basemen is charging in....it makes little difference what bat is being used.
After high school you will never see another fast ball as most coaches pitch on two planes in/out and up/down and never over the plate unless it?s a mistake.
When I see coaches move their corners in as far as they do YOU the coach and player do so at your own peril! Sometimes common sense should prevail as many of you know who you are coaching against and what a particular hitter is capable of doing with ANY bat.
A lot of hitters no longer are swinging down or level on the ball but are matching the plane of the pitch keeping the hands above the ball witch produces a ball leaving the bat at an angle of 8 to 26 degrees. If the ball is not struck exactly in the middle or is a little above or below the middle you are going to get a shot in the infield possibly 2 to 4 feet high and hard no matter what bat is being used, dead or new bat makes no difference.
This type of swing, a linear weight shift using rotational mechanics, taught by Candrea and Enquist see Right View Pro Intro Mike and Sue and used by most NPF and International player?s produces bat speeds of 76 to 78 MPH which is what Crystl swings. Pujols swings 86.99 MPH as tested last year and reported in GQ magazine, I think in Sept. or Oct. last year and also check out his vision range and vision testing by Dr. Bill Harrison included in the article.
We are measuring our girls now and getting 58 to 72 MPH and they are getting better as they improve their hitting techniques. I receive bats to test from Louisville, Mizuno, and Schutt so our kids can try before they buy and use at tournaments and high school. With bat speeds like that it makes little to no difference what they are swinging; the ball is coming off the bat hard?.it just might not go as far but you may want to stay alert if you are in the infield or a pitcher or are playing in on the corners at less than 25 to 30 feet.
We also teach situational hitting i.e. when to hit down on the ball based on the defensive alignment?if you remember USA vs. Japan this past summer, Crystl put one on the ground past the shortstop at her feet and to the fence and had a stand up double and 2 RBI?s and that was not a mistake, it was planned.
You said it well Lady Knights:Hot bats have made it possible for hitters with poor mechanics to still drive the ball.
When you are pitching inside on a hitter who opens their shoulder to start their swing and the hitter is right handed and your third basemen is charging in....it makes little difference what bat is being used.
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Great points Hitter. A kid with a disconnected swing, leading back elbow, bent front leg, etc. is NOT going to hit the ball as hard as a kid who has developed sound swing mechanics. The difference in the speed of the ball coming off ANY bat (even a 2x4) when hit with a good swing is awe inspiring. With my slow reflexes, I won't even think of pitching to my son any more without an L screen for protection - even from 60'!! I have used RightView in combination with Steve Englishbey's principles for about two years now, and it has made an incredible difference - not the Holy Grail, but a very close substitute!
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As we all know every thing is driven by the all mighty dollar. With all the dollars bat companies spend on advertisment and promotions, I don't think production of composite bats will cease. Sure some tweaking of specs but an end? I'm not sure. Same thing goes on in golf with drivers. There is just too much money involved. Just a thought.
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I was talking last night w/one with knowledge, and she stated that the "new standards" are to be that of a wooden bat. She has a good friend at Combat and according to her it will not make any sense to produce a composite with the performance of a wood bat. Her words, back to the aluminum bats I grew up playing with: 20 years ago. Doesn't sound to good.
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To those concerned with changing the game, I believe the game has already been changed by the composite bats and not all for the better. ?I've also never understood the argument that it doesn't matter what a good hitter swings so leave the bats in play as is. ?I actually agree with that, but in the reverse. ?If it doesn't matter what the good hitters swing, then what difference does it make if they are using a composite or an aluminum or wood bat. ?The better hitters will still have better results. ?Of course, bragging about your daughter going 3 for 4 with 2 singles and a double doesn't quite have the ring of a 3 for 4 with 2 monster homers.
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I'll take the Hillary Clinton approach, "I'm on the fence when it comes to the bats." ;D ?I feel the minority, kids with good swing mechanics, will still have success, with line drives and hard shots, not as many homeruns.
The majority, poor mechnics, will struggle to put anything hard into play, with weak fly balls, and mostly ground ball outs. ?
Kids will have to start working harder on their swings to keep up. ?I don't feel the "majority" have it in them to work harder, and the sport will start to lose players, because of the lack of success.
Just my 2 cents worth.
Initially had minority, but I meant majority
The majority, poor mechnics, will struggle to put anything hard into play, with weak fly balls, and mostly ground ball outs. ?
Kids will have to start working harder on their swings to keep up. ?I don't feel the "majority" have it in them to work harder, and the sport will start to lose players, because of the lack of success.
Just my 2 cents worth.
Initially had minority, but I meant majority
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Lady Knights, lol. I'd prefer not to take the Hillary Rodham approach to anything unless I'm trying to have someone's life ruined or sent up the river. Politics probably isn't the best subject on here, but I couldn't help myself.
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Why are you slamming the next president of the United States before she screws anything up when you have soooo many reasons to slam the current president that you all likely voted for?
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18over,
Hillary is that you?
Hillary is that you?
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