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Because they probably make more money by having indoor touch football leagues. They didn't make a lot of money bringing Hillhouse in and it takes a lot to keep paying the bills on that facility.
Because they probably make more money by having indoor touch football leagues. They didn't make a lot of money bringing Hillhouse in and it takes a lot to keep paying the bills on that facility.
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Yes I sure do, And that was my point of everyone stating about the follow thru to the same side shoulder. When that is the least of the issues which need or should be talked about with girls fastpitch mechanics. And besides the follow thru does not affect a ball that has already been released...
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So the health of the pitcher has no meaning to you is what I am gathering from your rhetoric....just throw the ball! Who cares what happens to the pitcher?
I understand now!
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So the health of the pitcher has no meaning to you is what I am gathering from your rhetoric....just throw the ball! Who cares what happens to the pitcher?
I understand now!
Huh... Now I am confused... They were talking about the arm to which side it goes and so on after the pitch...where did you get the idea in my statments i dont care about the pitchers health
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The hook is in! lol
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NO ONE MOVE! We have control of the plane and as long as our demands are met -no one gets hurt!
Howard,
I'm sure you have a better study to make the point of where a pitcher should finish with her arm than the one presented. The article you posted had everything to do with increased stress in underhand during acceleration, not deceleration i.e. how the pitcher finishes. The findings in your article state that overhand throwing is more stressful during deceleration. This makes a point that I brought up earlier, that while there are some mechanical similarities to overhand throwing, Windmill pitching is most definitely different. The closest point to the argument at hand in the article is the highest instance of injury is where the medial (inside) portion of the elbow would make contact with the lateral (outside) portion of the hip. It seems pretty obvious to me that you would not want to crash your elbow into your side at full go to (I'm guessing here) facilitate a snap of sorts at release. I have never heard of anyone teaching this, and would imagine a girl would suffer a very short and painful career if she attempted as such. I believe this is referring to a common tendency for girls to have an incorrect "pinky finger forward" orientation going into release. This brings the ball away from the pitchers body, the elbow tucks and could cause a collision with the lateral abdominal area. I could not imagine the position a pitcher would be in to actually have her elbow contact her hip as stated in the study you presented. (This may however happen in a game of twister or in a movie titled "Pitchers in the Mist" )
By the way, Parma Wildcats is a Hillhouse groupie and has bought several cases of snake oil from him in the past
Anyhoo, The video that PW presented from youtube is interesting as well. At 6:00 in the motion capture of Jennie, it appears that she goes into what pitching instructors call a "chicken wing". I'm not sure about finishing straight up on release will shorten a career, but I can tell you for certain that chicken winging will cause injury first hand. This is disastrous, she will blow out her arm if she continues to pitch like that. For God's sake, someone call Hillhouse and get that girl some proper instruction before she can't pitch into her forties!
My point is this: There are different styles of pitching. No one way is absolute. If a girl is using bad mechanics her body will tell her most of the time with soreness and or injury. If the girl and/or her parents choose to ignore the pain and continue the poor mechanics, she will not be successful, and will probably not be able to pitch very long. Most competent pitching coaches can get a girl into mechanics that are suitable for that girl. Not everyone is built the same and slight differences do exist.
Howard,
I'm sure you have a better study to make the point of where a pitcher should finish with her arm than the one presented. The article you posted had everything to do with increased stress in underhand during acceleration, not deceleration i.e. how the pitcher finishes. The findings in your article state that overhand throwing is more stressful during deceleration. This makes a point that I brought up earlier, that while there are some mechanical similarities to overhand throwing, Windmill pitching is most definitely different. The closest point to the argument at hand in the article is the highest instance of injury is where the medial (inside) portion of the elbow would make contact with the lateral (outside) portion of the hip. It seems pretty obvious to me that you would not want to crash your elbow into your side at full go to (I'm guessing here) facilitate a snap of sorts at release. I have never heard of anyone teaching this, and would imagine a girl would suffer a very short and painful career if she attempted as such. I believe this is referring to a common tendency for girls to have an incorrect "pinky finger forward" orientation going into release. This brings the ball away from the pitchers body, the elbow tucks and could cause a collision with the lateral abdominal area. I could not imagine the position a pitcher would be in to actually have her elbow contact her hip as stated in the study you presented. (This may however happen in a game of twister or in a movie titled "Pitchers in the Mist"
)By the way, Parma Wildcats is a Hillhouse groupie and has bought several cases of snake oil from him in the past
Anyhoo, The video that PW presented from youtube is interesting as well. At 6:00 in the motion capture of Jennie, it appears that she goes into what pitching instructors call a "chicken wing". I'm not sure about finishing straight up on release will shorten a career, but I can tell you for certain that chicken winging will cause injury first hand. This is disastrous, she will blow out her arm if she continues to pitch like that. For God's sake, someone call Hillhouse and get that girl some proper instruction before she can't pitch into her forties!
My point is this: There are different styles of pitching. No one way is absolute. If a girl is using bad mechanics her body will tell her most of the time with soreness and or injury. If the girl and/or her parents choose to ignore the pain and continue the poor mechanics, she will not be successful, and will probably not be able to pitch very long. Most competent pitching coaches can get a girl into mechanics that are suitable for that girl. Not everyone is built the same and slight differences do exist.
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ahhh jc70 !! coming out for your annual winter trolling !! nice to seeyou back dude...
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Most are answering why Cali teams are better for the simple fact that you can not even come to a consensus on how a pitcher should finish. Most girls that finish straight up usually are bringing their hip in at the same time at release so the arm has no other place to finish but up and not across. Their are absolutes in pitching and hitting. The camera does not lie. If you have ever listened to Gillis speak he will state they structure every pitcher according to her body type. If you film two successful pitchers one who is 5` 2" against a girl who is 6 ft in certain positions in their motion they will look very similar. It does not matter if it is RVP or Dartfish. Who would you want to look like a girl who is well balanced when she pitches or one who is leaning forward at release. Is that a style difference? Logical thinking would seem to be one would want to imitate proven techniques that are consistantly successful for the majority of people. I think in Ohio to many are slow to embrace change. They still think old school. Look at your local organizations. How many teach Kobata and how many utilize hitting based on a long zone linear swing? How many top teams in Ohio do? I think you have a large portion of coaches in Cali that know what success looks like and if you want to compete you better learn those techniques that are proven.
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The point of the study was where in under pitching the stress is and when in over hand throwing the stress is...most girls do not throw correctly over hand and when you see the back leg not release or the arm does not finish across the body they are at risk. I have girls that go to both Gillis and Bill...their arm, lower back and leg stop hurting after they go to them and they pick up more movement on the ball and speed. What is it they are teaching that prevents that as I am not a pitching person? What is different? I am not looking to name any instructor however some thing is vastly different and understanding it verses saying it has no effect on their body is valid.
Just like for throwing understanding the weight shift is critical to the swing and it looks the same for pitching. When I see a pitchers toe and the side of her gym shoe worn out, something has to be wrong and some part of her body will be or is taking a lot of abuse.
Just like the studies for the ACL, 31% injuries in the knee area for women in softball, same injury and only 3% for baseball however I understand why there. So where is it coming from in pitching? Could it be the arm is not balanced correctly? We know for sure some of it is in the hamstring and they do point out shoulder strength boys verses girls.
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I know I see her arm finishing on the right side of her body and above her head.
How a pitcher finishes, most of the time depends on what pitch they are throwing. I know some instructors insist all pitches look the same, however the best females in the world do not adhere to that idea.
That old saying, "there is more than one way to skin a cat" applies here.
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I admire Bill Hillhouse and what he has accomplished in the mens game, however he is not the only guy who is 'qualified" to teach pitching methods.
This guy taught my DD and MANY others who went off the pitch at the D 1 college level.
These are his qualifications.
Starting pitcher for the USA World International team for 10 years
Starting Pitcher for the TWA National team for 24 years
Played and Pitched in 14 World Tournaments on 5 continents, 32 National, 16 Regional and 36 State Tournaments
National/International Pitching Instructor
Assistant Coach for Capital University from 1998-2002
Assistant Coach for Ohio Dominican University from 1999-Present
Has coached statewide with 6 colleges and Universities
Over 46 years fast-pitch experience
Has instructed over 4,000 students in 6 states for over 23 years
Sorry if I continue to listen to his expertise. The proofs in the pudding.
This guy taught my DD and MANY others who went off the pitch at the D 1 college level.
These are his qualifications.
Starting pitcher for the USA World International team for 10 years
Starting Pitcher for the TWA National team for 24 years
Played and Pitched in 14 World Tournaments on 5 continents, 32 National, 16 Regional and 36 State Tournaments
National/International Pitching Instructor
Assistant Coach for Capital University from 1998-2002
Assistant Coach for Ohio Dominican University from 1999-Present
Has coached statewide with 6 colleges and Universities
Over 46 years fast-pitch experience
Has instructed over 4,000 students in 6 states for over 23 years
Sorry if I continue to listen to his expertise. The proofs in the pudding.
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Ron is very good and we have some kids that take lessons from him.
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We see at the clinics the over hand throwing is very poor as to technique which is why we teach throwing as an introduction to weight shift and balance.
Yes there are many ways to pitch....however I still do not understand why it should hurt to throw over or underhanded. Anyone who can teach how to make the ball move more, throw faster and it does not hurt gets my vote.
My knowledge is limited as to pitching however with the kids that have been to Bill and Doug the improvements were great...could that have happened with the people you mentioned, I honestly do not know enough about them to make the judgment. However it should all make us wonder why there is that much variation to the techniques being taught and why the parents do not listen to their kids when they complain about, knee, ankle, lower back or shoulder pain from pitching or throwing.
Thanks Howard
Yes there are many ways to pitch....however I still do not understand why it should hurt to throw over or underhanded. Anyone who can teach how to make the ball move more, throw faster and it does not hurt gets my vote.
My knowledge is limited as to pitching however with the kids that have been to Bill and Doug the improvements were great...could that have happened with the people you mentioned, I honestly do not know enough about them to make the judgment. However it should all make us wonder why there is that much variation to the techniques being taught and why the parents do not listen to their kids when they complain about, knee, ankle, lower back or shoulder pain from pitching or throwing.
Thanks Howard
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Also here is some food for thought. We are ALL talking about the best what evers in the world, most of which are in there late 20's to 40+ years old. This means they way they were taught was how it was done 20 to 30 or more years ago. Not that it is wrong, but we have all seen new things (new age) being taught and the great strides being made... Look at the changes of hitting go on now and how much it is working, Maybe not different then 30 years ago but just being taught differently now....
Change and being open to new ideas can and is in alot of cases working. Be more open and be objective to things, it may be your daughter that change helps out the most..
Change and being open to new ideas can and is in alot of cases working. Be more open and be objective to things, it may be your daughter that change helps out the most..
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I can stand squarely behind this. I have seen (and at one time was guilty) of having the "football" mentality of playing through the pain. I have since been converted by competent pitching instructors that this is not ok. Playing with pain may be ok if you get whacked on the thigh with a pitch, but not so much with a sore arm or shoulder from incorrect repetitive motion.
I bust chops with the whole Hillhouse thing to get a rise out of some people, and because I watched parts of his videos and he seemed to me to be a bit arrogant. I'm sure he is a fine pitcher, and possibly a good person to lead a clinic on pitching. I just am not sold on the idea that he is the end all to pitching with all the right answers. Thats all.
Oh, and to stop the Hijacking, Cali has more quality players because we have 20 feet of snow on the ground
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I can stand squarely behind this. I have seen (and at one time was guilty) of having the "football" mentality of playing through the pain. I have since been converted by competent pitching instructors that this is not ok. Playing with pain may be ok if you get whacked on the thigh with a pitch, but not so much with a sore arm or shoulder from incorrect repetitive motion.
I bust chops with the whole Hillhouse thing to get a rise out of some people, and because I watched parts of his videos and he seemed to me to be a bit arrogant. I'm sure he is a fine pitcher, and possibly a good person to lead a clinic on pitching. I just am not sold on the idea that he is the end all to pitching with all the right answers. Thats all.
Oh, and to stop the Hijacking, Cali has more quality players because we have 20 feet of snow on the ground
I try to do my research and call friends within a network we have and I will get an answer!
A friend of mine in Modesto California called yesterday and told me it was sunny and warm...he has been watching the thread and laughing. Crystl, Lovie and I did a clinic back in May. If we ever meet I will share some interesting perspectives with you privately about their softball culture.
Thanks Howard
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I try to do my research and call friends within a network we have and I will get an answer!
A friend of mine in Modesto California called yesterday and told me it was sunny and warm...he has been watching the thread and laughing. Crystl, Lovie and I did a clinic back in May. If we ever meet I will share some interesting perspectives with you privately about their softball culture.
Thanks Howard
Howard if you ever see the 12u parma wildcats, Thundersdad is the great big teddy bear. You can't miss him....lol
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Are you planning on coming to the Bustos clinic in Columbus next week?
Would like to meet and put a face to some of you folks.
I am going to bring JW with me, Jherica Williams from WSU as she is getting into teaching hitting now and wants to learn more from the "Big Girl".
Hope you can make it...
Howard
PS...I can get Bill to autograph a ball for him :lmao:
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Sweet!!! I will put it right beween my bible from Jim Bakker the televeangelist and my portrait of Elvis done in velvet :lmao:
I gotta stop this, I will run into him at a clinic or something someday and he will put a 70mph in my ear! lol
I was trying to work out getting to the clinic next week. It is unfortunately not going to happen this time. I really want to get to one of them however in the near future. Do you have a schedule of the next few clinics available?
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This will be the last one in Ohio this year as she is managing the Racers this year. I am sure she we will be doing some Racers clinics using actual Racers players during the summer as she has talked about it already.
We will be in Pennsylvania the first and last week of February also.
Thanks Howard
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