Pitching and Pitchers Discussion NCAA Backpeddles on Illegal Pitches

Hilliarddad3 said:

Joe there is a difference with the Columbus Police reference... We don't teach the kids to drive 56MPH. If they did it and get caught they pay the price.

Coaches are teaching the illegal deliveries and that's where the problem lies.

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Very true, and there's a huge difference between "laws" and "rules". Hopefully my kids learned to "play by the rules" and "obey the laws". Before they turn 18, I am the enforcer. After they turn 18 (in most instances) THEY are responsible for deciding if going 56 (or 75 for that matter) is prudent, because it is THEY who have to pay the consequences for their actions. Those consequences are VERY different when breaking laws as opposed to breaking rules... So it's up to each individual how they choose to approach it.

fastpitchrox said:

OSU vs Wisconsin game on Saturday. Umpires called one pitcher for Wisconsin 8 or 9 times for illegal pitch. This amounted to I believe 4 runs for OSU. Wisconsin assistant coach got a little heated and was ejected.

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I was there and they did not go soft at all on Wisconsin's freshman #21 Mcintosh. A few were very bad pitches replacing the foot and called but the rest were hard to see. I am a true Buckeye fan and still was feeling bad for her. If you noticed the umpire staff was writing a lot in their books more than they use to as well.

Yesterday game 1 there was illegals called as well.

raellis123 said:

I was at the OSU/UW game too. They called several pitchers for illegal pitches, but the one blond pitcher who started the second game really got hammered with them. Once I started paying attention to what she was doing, it did look like she was coming off and replanting/pushing off with her back foot off the pitchers plate. Because of her motion some looked really close because she didn't always push off. But the one's called when I was watching closely did look illegal. Although they were called so frequently it was really disruptive to the game.

Like others have said, I suspect this comes down to enforcement at earlier ages, but also coaching. For this player it looked like her regular motion and she didn't seem to know how to fix it. Clearly a coach had to have seen her doing that.

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I agree that illegal pitches should be called, every time. But(no offense) to say ANYTHING disrupts the flow of the game is a farce, a joke. Every game is different. If a pitcher is throwing illegal pitches and gets caught several times, that IS the flow of that particular game. That is the problem. People get used to seeing pitchers pitch and batters swing. Some balls are hit and some are not. That is a "typical" flow of the game, but the game itself becomes a mockery when the RULES of the game are not enforced. That my friends is totally on the umpiring crew. They get paid ONLY to enforce the rules of the game, not to ensure a smooth flow to a typical tempo, that is THEIR desire.. The problem is the vast majority of umps have no clue as to what is legal or not, where pitching is concerned.
Then there is the judgement factor. I have a buddy who is a volleyball ref. He knows the rules completely. But as far as seeing the infractions, where judgement comes in, he is terrible. I have watched him ref. Obvious carrys happen, no call. Girls flat hand dig right off the floor, he calls the ball hit the floor. You can see the coaches and players expressions and reactions when he continually misses calls.... I see it all the time in fastpitch too. Its not that umps dont always know the rules, they normally do. But the judgement factor enters into play. Some guys get it right, and some are notoriously bad. Where pitching enforcement is concerned, I think it is a combo of not knowing the rules and not being able to distinguish the infraction. Pitiful, actually. The leap and replant is epidemic in Ohio.
There was an ump named Peterson. One of the best umps I ever saw. He called leaping on my DD when she was 11 pitching in a rec league game.(he does/did/ high school and some college) She leaped because of her very small size, she needed every advantage she could get. Instead of leaving her in and getting frustrated, We removed her from the circle. That is when we went to Marsteller at Grand Slam in Westerville(now Dublin) He fixed the problem and she was never called illegal again in the next 11 years. DD even pitched in front of Pettersons daughter in high school...Funny how things work, huh?
No one said umping is easy, it is not. But it IS easier for some people than others.

Just for the record, my reference to Joe and the line of dialogue he should use with the umpire was because he is a recovering lawyer and something as nebulous "benefit of the doubt", seemed like it would be right up his alley for a lawyer-like discussion.

Tangy-Mike said:

Just for the record, my reference to Joe and the line of dialogue he should use with the umpire was because he is a recovering lawyer and something as nebulous "benefit of the doubt", seemed like it would be right up his alley for a lawyer-like discussion.

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LOL and I am sure Joe got the gist.

I like the fact they were cleaning it up. It can be difficult for a home plate umpire to see illegal pitches but if you have a full crew it is quite easy. I was at the OSU/Wisconsin game and was behind home plate. I could not tell but went to 3rd base side and it was clear that the pitcher was twisting off the rubber then pushing. Although she got hammered for it I am sure she will correct it in practice. She was essentially pushing from 2 inches closer so she should be called for it. The Florida Alabama game the florida pitcher was obviously leaping and was an easy call to make. The bottom line is - if you let it slide every year it slides a bit more and a bit more and maybe make a token call once a game like in the past until you have to make a drastic correction which is what you are seeing here. I wish they had more courage to hold their ground and not bow to people saying it ruined the game. Pitch within the rules and the game will be fine. I applaud them for doing it.

punchout said:

I agree that illegal pitches should be called, every time. But(no offense) to say ANYTHING disrupts the flow of the game is a farce, a joke. Every game is different. If a pitcher is throwing illegal pitches and gets caught several times, that IS the flow of that particular game. That is the problem. People get used to seeing pitchers pitch and batters swing. Some balls are hit and some are not. That is a "typical" flow of the game, but the game itself becomes a mockery when the RULES of the game are not enforced. That my friends is totally on the umpiring crew. They get paid ONLY to enforce the rules of the game, not to ensure a smooth flow to a typical tempo, that is THEIR desire.. The problem is the vast majority of umps have no clue as to what is legal or not, where pitching is concerned.

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Hey Punchout - I understand what you are saying about illegal pitches being part of the flow of the game. Yet at the same time having a lot of them called certainly changes the game. In this case, the UW pitcher had several called within a few pitches and it did get painful to watch as she didn't seem to know how to correct it. But I'm not blaming the umps in this game for calling these pitches because, as I posted earlier, I think she was throwing a lot of illegal pitches. I think this is a coaching issue and as others have said, likely a failure of umps at earlier ages to call it correctly (assuming tourneys with base umps, don't think a plate ump would see this situation).

BTW, I'm saying this as both a pitcher's dad and an assistant coach. My DD doesn't do this although she picked up another bad habit this winter that would cause an illegal pitch. Her pitching coach got on her case about it and we have it about 99% fixed going into the MS school season. I figure that is good money spent on that coach identifying and fixing the problem before we have a situation like this one.

raellis123 said:

Hey Punchout - I understand what you are saying about illegal pitches being part of the flow of the game. Yet at the same time having a lot of them called certainly changes the game. In this case, the UW pitcher had several called within a few pitches and it did get painful to watch as she didn't seem to know how to correct it. But I'm not blaming the umps in this game for calling these pitches because, as I posted earlier, I think she was throwing a lot of illegal pitches. I think this is a coaching issue and as others have said, likely a failure of umps at earlier ages to call it correctly (assuming tourneys with base umps, don't think a plate ump would see this situation).

BTW, I'm saying this as both a pitcher's dad and an assistant coach. My DD doesn't do this although she picked up another bad habit this winter that would cause an illegal pitch. Her pitching coach got on her case about it and we have it about 99% fixed going into the MS school season. I figure that is good money spent on that coach identifying and fixing the problem before we have a situation like this one.

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I agree with you about the flow. If we had 8 girls in a game leaving early to steal 2nd, and the ump called everyone of them, wouldnt that be the same basic idea? Wouldnt that disrupt the flow of the game?. We do want that to be called, don`t we? Not playing by the rules, whether it be on purpose or by accident, is not in the spirit of the game. What are we teaching them about life if we let the cheating go unchecked?

I have a photo of a game during my DD's college freshman year, with her pitching against Michigan State. The photo PLAINLY shows a Michigan State player a FULL STRIDE off the 1st base bag, with DD in the "K" position - pitching arm at 12:00. The base umpire's viewing angle was a STRAIGHT LINE from the 1st base bag to the pitcher. Absolutely horrible umpiring! I have considered sending a copy to the NCAA, but never followed through.

There was a call made on a strike-out where a MSU batter didn't check her swing in time, and was called out swinging. I was near the backstop and heard the heated exchange between the MSU coach and the plate umpire over the call. What REALLY caught my attention was when Ms. Joseph stated "Do you realize WHO I AM?"

The poetic justice was that not only did she lose her "slanted" appeal that day, her team also lost the game.

I am convinced that many umpires are influenced by the politics of the game at the higher levels of play, because I KNOW these guys aren't THAT blind. This was an example of a plate umpire who excercised blind justice, but a base umpire who was either incredibly bad, or incredibly influenced.

punchout said:

I agree with you about the flow. If we had 8 girls in a game leaving early to steal 2nd, and the ump called everyone of them, wouldnt that be the same basic idea? Wouldnt that disrupt the flow of the game?. We do want that to be called, don`t we? Not playing by the rules, whether it be on purpose or by accident, is not in the spirit of the game. What are we teaching them about life if we let the cheating go unchecked?

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I agree that we all should be playing by the rules and not advocating or allowing cheating. Interestingly, there were a couple of the players called out for leaving early in that same game too.

What seems to have made this game so painful to watch was that the pitcher didn't seem to know how to correct herself. In your example it would be much easier to correct the "leaving early" baserunning situation - just stop trying to get a jump on the ball. It's not optimal, but could at least be explained in a few seconds to the players. Somewhat different for pitching where it is based upon years of practice.

But either way, umps should call it by the rules.

Well, it appears the NCAA isn't backpeddling that much on this rule. I'm a U of Arizona grad and read the Tucson paper's web site to get my Wildcat fixes. http://azstarnet.com/sports/softbal...e-c74f-5f14-91ea-35d28a0e1287.html?mode=story

UA lost in softball last night to Arizona State (hurts to even write that), but the interesting thing is that the UA pitcher, Sarah Akamine, was called for 5 illegal pitches. She was called for 4 in her last game and Mike Candrea was ejected in that earlier game arguing about the illegal pitch calls.

What is interesting about that is that Akamine (a senior) says she has never been called for illegal pitches in her entire career before this week (according to a quote in the article). I doubt it is bad coaching that got her to this point. Setting aside my feelings for UA, I'm quite confident that someone like Mike Candrea and his coaches know what is legal and illegal and would fix any problems they saw. It has been too long since I've seen Akamine pitch and I can't vouch for her pitching mechanics, but I doubt they are that bad given the program she is in.

So it is one thing to say that a freshman pitcher (like the young lady we've been discussing from UW) is having problems adjusting to how college umps call the game. But a 21 y/o senior who has been pitching for however many years, and no reputation for illegal pitches, all of the sudden being called for so many does seem fishy.

I still stand on calling the pitch illegal if it is illegal, but it does make me wonder how the NCAA is viewing these mechanics and whether their member schools really understand what the umps are looking for.

Nobody has had a reputation for illegal pitches prior to this year because it wasn't called. I am positive Coach Candrea knows quite well what is and is not legal when speaking of the rules. He is also extremely well versed in what will and won't be called prior to this season. He also knows those aren't the same things. Where it's getting confusing is the fact the rule wasn't being enforced before, and now it is, thus all the griping.

Haven't seen the video from the AZ game, but I'd bet there's a 90% chance she was called for having both feet off the ground at some point. (leaping) That's the most common infraction that I've noticed.

More than any other softball sanctioning body, the NCAA rules and rule changes are driven by the input of the coaches. The coaches are regarded as the "experts" and stewards of the game. When they talk, the NCAA rules committee listens.

One example a few years ago was when the NCAA added penalties for players removing chalked lines on the field. Coaches complained, the NCAA listened and a new rule was born. A more recent example is the addition of two chalked lines to delineate the "pitching lane". Coaches raised a ruckus about about pitcher's stepping out of the lane (and especially coaches who had been victimized by Taryne Mowatt's screwball). The next year we had two more lines chalked on the field and this rule heavily emphasized.

In the past week alone, I have heard accounts of four NCAA head or assistant coaches being ejected from games for arguing about illegal pitches. Now that the NCAA's "Big Dog" of coaches (Candrea) has got the hook, I would imagine that that the rules committee will be taking some heat.

Does anyone remember the Arizona-Texas game a few years ago where Candrea almost cost his team the win by improperly filling out his line-up card? This small technicality was protested by Texas late in the game, wiping out two Arizona runs. The Wildcats did hang on for a 1-0 victory.

The next season, the rules about properly filling out the line-up card were magically changed.

And so it goes. Coaches complain that illegal pitches aren't being called. Then, coaches complain when illegal pitches are called. Now that the games preminent coach has been "snake bit" by this new emphasis, it wouldn't surprise me one bit to see something change- again!

ExxWhy said:

Nobody has had a reputation for illegal pitches prior to this year because it wasn't called. I am positive Coach Candrea knows quite well what is and is not legal when speaking of the rules. He is also extremely well versed in what will and won't be called prior to this season. He also knows those aren't the same things. Where it's getting confusing is the fact the rule wasn't being enforced before, and now it is, thus all the griping.

Haven't seen the video from the AZ game, but I'd bet there's a 90% chance she was called for having both feet off the ground at some point. (leaping) That's the most common infraction that I've noticed.

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I can't find any video of Akamine pitching, so I don't know what she is doing. But I reread the article and it does mention that the ump saw her foot lose contact with the rubber on her screwballs.

But to my previous post - Akamine is UA's #2 pitcher and has pitched 68 innings in 15 games this year. It is only in her last 2 games that she has been called for illegal pitches. So 1) it doesn't appear that the NCAA is backpeddling much on calling the pitches; and 2) there appears to be considerable inconsistency in how the umps are calling these pitches.

From what the article says, in the earlier game the IPs were called by only 1 ump and Candrea (& staff) apparently didn't see anything they thought needed to be addressed in practice. Kind of tough to fix something if one of the most experienced coaches in the country can't see anything wrong. That won't be the case for UW if they watch the pitcher I was mentioning earlier, many of those pitches were clearly illegal.

I'm confident when they look at the video, they will see exactly what she was being called for without needing to look too hard. 99% chance they don't even need to look at the video. They are all mad because she had gotten away with it for a lifetime. Human nature.

I would agree it's inconsistent and would also agree the backpeddle isn't very far back. Could be a case of previous umpires thinking to themselves, do I want Candrea mad at ME? Now that he is mad at somebody, bretman may well be right and we'll see something else next year. (or 2012 since they are on a 2 year rule cycle now, but this might be termed EMERGENCY! lol)

I find the idea that Candrea can influence a change in calling the rules sickening because it may be true. I do not know on what grounds he could possible complain though. He has had several pitchers that bend the rules quite a bit. Illegal pitches like twisting off the rubber and pushing or leaping are so easy to call from the secondary umpires there isnt a defense you can give for it. Candrea knew that they would be enforcing the rules, they had time to adapt. It was time for a snap back to harsh enforcement because their have been some pitcher in recent years getting away with murder out there. Do we let pitchers just do what they want because for part of one season it may impede the flow of a few games. Do we do it because we are too cowardly to hold our ground even when we are clearly in the right. I personally like the offense that has come alive in recent years. It has brought fresh air to the game and made it more viable for television. The last thing I would want to do if I was in charge would be to hand advantage back to pitchers.

raellis123 said:

Well, it appears the NCAA isn't backpeddling that much on this rule. I'm a U of Arizona grad and read the Tucson paper's web site to get my Wildcat fixes. http://azstarnet.com/sports/softbal...e-c74f-5f14-91ea-35d28a0e1287.html?mode=story

UA lost in softball last night to Arizona State (hurts to even write that), but the interesting thing is that the UA pitcher, Sarah Akamine, was called for 5 illegal pitches. She was called for 4 in her last game and Mike Candrea was ejected in that earlier game arguing about the illegal pitch calls.

What is interesting about that is that Akamine (a senior) says she has never been called for illegal pitches in her entire career before this week (according to a quote in the article). I doubt it is bad coaching that got her to this point. Setting aside my feelings for UA, I'm quite confident that someone like Mike Candrea and his coaches know what is legal and illegal and would fix any problems they saw. It has been too long since I've seen Akamine pitch and I can't vouch for her pitching mechanics, but I doubt they are that bad given the program she is in.

So it is one thing to say that a freshman pitcher (like the young lady we've been discussing from UW) is having problems adjusting to how college umps call the game. But a 21 y/o senior who has been pitching for however many years, and no reputation for illegal pitches, all of the sudden being called for so many does seem fishy.

I still stand on calling the pitch illegal if it is illegal, but it does make me wonder how the NCAA is viewing these mechanics and whether their member schools really understand what the umps are looking for.

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I am not surprised by Mike Candrea`s reaction. He coached the Olympic team that had Cat and Abbott who were both illegal. These top level coaches do not know any trade secrets that most of us dont know or do not have access to. They are GREAT recruiters, they are at schools who have great tradition, and the great players want to play there. Take Candrea and give him Indiana`s talent and see how far he takes them. In California the umps cracked down @ 3 yrs ago. The problem is almost nonexistant now.