Finally!!

Agree Ringer.. our girl was not cheating.. she feel into a bad habit throwing indoors of leaping too much up and not out.

If every person here knew they would not get a ticket going 75 on I75, they would go 75 - cheaters? no, just doing with the law allows - and it would not necessarily be intentional - traffic would go a fast as it can until they reach speeds that get them pulled over. Blame the umps for not calling it the right way all along.. i doubt any girl and her coach 'worked' on a leap,replant knowing they could get away with it.

Famous last words:

"But officer, I've driven this stretch of road the same speed for YEARS! And you decide to stop me for speeding TODAY??"

"C'mon ref! I've been playing basketball all my life, and you wait 'til I get into college ball to call me on carrying the ball??"

Moral: Teach your pitchers CORRECTLY and they won't have to come up with LAME excuses later in their career!

The umpires are just doing their job. I look at it this way - IF they weren't pitching illegally, they would have nothing to worry about, and therefore - nothing to "fix". If ANYONE is at fault, it's the parents of the pitcher! They are the ones who were responsible for the illegal pitching that was taught to their daughter when she was young. It should be about taking charge and being responsible, NOT trying to find someone else to blame!

(Oh - and yes... I'm a pitcher's dad... )

From my DD pitching coach and I agree.

Subject: Illegal Pitches
I haven't seen a lot of games - did watch some of the Tennessee/Arizona game - the one with a number of illegal pitches by the Arizona pitcher - Tennessee won 9-0. From what I watched, the umpires were calling illegal pitches because the pitchers were "leaping", lifting their push foot off the ground. I heard an announcer say that there were seven illegal pitches thrown but corrected herself to say there were seven illegal pitches called, implying that they may or may not have been illegal but were called illegal by the umpires.
So how is it possible that this late in the college season some of the supposedly best fast pitch softball pitchers are getting called for illegal pitches? From what I saw it's simple - they were pitching illegally. They have probably been pitching illegally often - and not getting called on it. Why pitch illegally? To gain an advantage?
Anyone that knows me should know that I don't teach pitchers anything that is illegal - for one good reason. At some point an opposing coach will see it and tell the umpires, or an umpire will see it and call it, and force the pitcher to comply with the rules. And anyone that has pitched will know that to change during a game is difficult if not impossible.
Most of the pitchers that I've seen - college, Olympics, high school varsity and junior varsity, summer ball, rec leagues - don't pitch illegally. They don't have to pitch illegally to get hitters out. To adopt bad habits and break the rules is stupid, in my opinion, and will eventually result in problems for the pitcher and her team. As a pitcher do you want to put runners on base because illegal pitches are balls, not strikes. Do you want to give up runs because runners advance on illegal pitches? Do you want to be the reason your team loses? Or are you selfish and don't care? Think about it.
And coaches - what do you teach? What do you tolerate? Mike Candrea, Arizona coach and former Olympic team coach, looked pretty unhappy with the umpires that were calling the illegal pitches. Maybe he didn't think they were illegal - the camera showed they were illegal, no doubt. So what does he teach? Why does he tolerate illegal pitches? As a coach it was my responsibility to make sure my players knew the rules and abided by them. Last evening for Arizona the illegal pitches contributed to the loss, and that's a fact! Follow the rules or suffer the consequences - that's the way it is and the way it should be.




Coach Z John Zoellner
Fastpitch Softball Pitching Coach

E-Mail: jzoellner@zoellnergarten.com
www.fastpitchcoachz.com

bsjonesoh said:

From my DD pitching coach and I agree.

Subject: Illegal Pitches

Most of the pitchers that I've seen - college, Olympics, high school varsity and junior Follow the rules or suffer the consequences - that's the way it is and the way it should be.


Coach Z John Zoellner
Fastpitch Softball Pitching Coach

E-Mail: jzoellner@zoellnergarten.com
www.fastpitchcoachz.com

Click to expand...

And now these elite pitchers are suffering the consequences because they have been doing it WRONG for a while now. This doesn't just creep into your pitching. It has had to have been there for a while. It really is simple, DRAG your toe.

I say it is about time even if it is during the World Series. Everyone's watching. Maybe they are pointing it out to the younger girls coming along so they work on it now. Unfortunately, the college girls are the ones being used as examples. It's not like they could help it, no one at their younger ages stopped them. As a result it's a bad habit. I think it needs to start at 10U while the girls are still learning.

My question is this, I'm reading that indoors causes the crow hop, why?

sad627--it is too harsh, baserunners shouldn't advance.

My DD has thrown indoors quite a bit and has not had an issue dragging her toe. I am wondering if the crow hopping/leaping from throwing indoors is a built in excuse or why isn't their pitching coach/teacher fixing it as soon as they see it. Seems like instead of fixing what is being done wrong, there are excuses being made. Been around a few tourneys already and really have not seen much of the leaping. Only a couple of girls and umpires addressed it with the coaches to let them know if it happens again, they will call it. As it should be called!

Strohbro said:

My DD has thrown indoors quite a bit and has not had an issue dragging her toe. I am wondering if the crow hopping/leaping from throwing indoors is a built in excuse or why isn't their pitching coach/teacher fixing it as soon as they see it. Seems like instead of fixing what is being done wrong, there are excuses being made. Been around a few tourneys already and really have not seen much of the leaping. Only a couple of girls and umpires addressed it with the coaches to let them know if it happens again, they will call it. As it should be called!

Click to expand...

I agree, at 10U, first bring it to the girls attention without calling it, and maybe allow a couple more pitches, but if no effort to correct, then call it. I've seen that approach with those who did it and it has worked.

Coach Z John Zoellner -

IMO, so-called "crow-hopping" (actually it's a re-plant) is epidemic in Ohio. Every summer I see kids with the "sideways jump" that leave the characteristic two divots where their feet land. I stand there and watch in amazement, PITCH AFTER PITCH - and nothing is called. With younger kids that's a travesty, because it's likely that even the parents think their kid is pitching legally. Why? Because the umpire isn't calling it! And that's their false sense of security, because just because it isn't getting called DOESN'T mean it's legal.

Yesterday evening, Cheri Kempf talked about and demonstrated a very important element of pitching mechanics. She showed how the TOP of the knee (pivot foot) should drive toward the catcher, which will naturally cause the top of the foot (shoe laces) to also point to the catcher. Keeping that foot/ankle relaxed allows the toe to point DOWN, and gives the toe a chance to drag.

If you think about it, lower body mechanics are very similar in windmill pitching, hitting and overhand throwing.

well, all the perfect pitchers out there can argue for this all they want... the fact remains that illegal pitches were called yesterday in the world series at about 300% more frequent rate than ALL College season.. Those pitchers did not develope a bad leaping problem the night before they pitched in Oklahoma!!! You say shame on the pitchers.. I say Shame on the NCAA. everyone without a doubt wants consistancy from umpires.. well that aint consistancy.. Plus you want to talk physcological reasoning.. Ill give you this analogy..

Try allowing your kids to break a rule consistantly over a long periond of time.. then tell them no not gonna happen anymore.. You would not choose to rasie you kids that way, but now you want umpires to come donw on these girls for what they.. and the NCAA allowed them to do all season..

Try this one next for all those perfect pitchers out there!!!! This is all about interpretation, regardless of how rules are written they all have a board/ umpire interpretation.. All this is, is a now literal interpretation of a rule, that although seeiming written clearly, has not been interpreted this way until recently.. like yesterday!!

So, you perfectly legit awesome, never cheating pitchers just what if tommorrow they decided to interpret the heal up and toe down as a leap because the heel is now obviously higher than it originally started (i.e Leap) Would you then argue and say this is a travicty.. Yes you would... This is no more than a change in emphasis of a rule interpretation....

Now after all that, dont get me wrong if this is how they are going to interpret this rule than so be it.. I will teach it, practice it make it happen etc,, but my complaint is that they chose a terrible.. terrible... terrible time to make this a point..

And dont tell me again that, " They did make it a point this year!!" Baloney! these pitchers only having so many called all season to being called six or more times in less than a game.. Cmon. these umpires were directly told to make it a point, IN THE WORLD SERIES! and that is a shame.. That is my whole point, not the illegal/ legal aspect of it, just that the NCAA chose the WORLD SERIES to drive the point home, because they failed part way through the season to get this interpretation emphasized. So they are now crucifying teams and pitchers in an effort to get done what they did not have the nuts to do during the season.... Once again shame on them for ruining the 2010 World Series

The thing I noticed with the Arizona pitcher was the placement of her right foot on the rubber pre-windup. Where most pitchers have their toe hanging over the front of the rubber she had her heel resting against the front. After her rock back she was clearly looking to leap and replant. Must be a SoCal trick, LOL

The crow hop I understand calling but a leap without a drag is just plain ludicrous to call. There is no advantage gained whatsoever from an illegal leap. I would be willing to bet that speed does not increase, nor how much closer they get to the plate. When you have to slow the video down to see it, how can you expect an umpire to catch it every time. Here we have umpires so focused on these illegal pitches that they are not focused on other aspects of the game.

I agree with Crush, nowhere through the year at any level of softball was this called as frequent as it has been in the World Series. It's a distraction that has taken away from the game and brought to much unwanted and unneeded attention to the umpires and announcers. Games are so much better to watch if they are not constantly critiquing a player, whether it is a pitcher or a hitter.

Unfortunately this seems to be one of those perpetual arguments. In my mind there are only 2 relevant questions. 1) Are the pitching (and other rules for that matter) going to be consistently enforced? 2) When are they going to be enforced? It is constantly argued that at the younger ages they are overlooked to keep the games moving, and interesting for the kids. Believe me I understand that rationalization, as a steady stream of illegal pitch calls will lead many batters to simply wait for the umpire to make the call. As they get a little bit older the argument comes into play that they have been doing this all along its not fair to enforce now. We can't enforce it in high school, because many teams only have 1 decent pitcher and if she can't throw the games will go on forever.
I don't have any good answers.

Well, let's see. Tiffany has been leaving base early since rec. league, so we sure don't want to single her out. We'll just let her get a jump, a lead off, and let it go. She's not that fast anyway, so it probably won't make any difference.

Don't forget about Jennifer! She's been struggling a little with her hitting - well actually she never has hit very well. She should get 4 strikes before she's out, because she probably still won't be able to get a hit - so maybe it won't make a difference.

Rules violations are rules violations. Ignorance of the rules is no excuse. Until the rules committee changes the rules and makes leaping legal, having both feet in the air simultaneously is a blatant rules violation. And likewise, until they make lead-offs legal, Tiffany should be called out - EVERY TIME.

Your comparing Applesauce to Horseradish sauce!! Of course they are sauces but they just aren't quite the same.

Sammy I know your DD has played and pitched at the top levels but I just don't agree with you on this and think it's a fight that just isn't worth fighting.

Crush1 said:

well, all the perfect pitchers out there can argue for this all they want... the fact remains that illegal pitches were called yesterday in the world series at about 300% more frequent rate than ALL College season.. Those pitchers did not develope a bad leaping problem the night before they pitched in Oklahoma!!! You say shame on the pitchers.. I say Shame on the NCAA. everyone without a doubt wants consistancy from umpires.. well that aint consistancy.. Plus you want to talk physcological reasoning.. Ill give you this analogy..

Try allowing your kids to break a rule consistantly over a long periond of time.. then tell them no not gonna happen anymore.. You would not choose to rasie you kids that way, but now you want umpires to come donw on these girls for what they.. and the NCAA allowed them to do all season..

Try this one next for all those perfect pitchers out there!!!! This is all about interpretation, regardless of how rules are written they all have a board/ umpire interpretation.. All this is, is a now literal interpretation of a rule, that although seeiming written clearly, has not been interpreted this way until recently.. like yesterday!!

So, you perfectly legit awesome, never cheating pitchers just what if tommorrow they decided to interpret the heal up and toe down as a leap because the heel is now obviously higher than it originally started (i.e Leap) Would you then argue and say this is a travicty.. Yes you would... This is no more than a change in emphasis of a rule interpretation....

Now after all that, dont get me wrong if this is how they are going to interpret this rule than so be it.. I will teach it, practice it make it happen etc,, but my complaint is that they chose a terrible.. terrible... terrible time to make this a point..

And dont tell me again that, " They did make it a point this year!!" Baloney! these pitchers only having so many called all season to being called six or more times in less than a game.. Cmon. these umpires were directly told to make it a point, IN THE WORLD SERIES! and that is a shame.. That is my whole point, not the illegal/ legal aspect of it, just that the NCAA chose the WORLD SERIES to drive the point home, because they failed part way through the season to get this interpretation emphasized. So they are now crucifying teams and pitchers in an effort to get done what they did not have the nuts to do during the season.... Once again shame on them for ruining the 2010 World Series

Click to expand...

Crush1, You said it yourself ILLEGAL pitch! The world series is the perfect time to enforce it nobody would have noticed it at the beginning of the year but, everyone has seen it now. I'll bet will see some illegal pitches called this weekend that would have been swept under the rug before this happened.:yahoo: I'm mad because after the World Series is over they'll go back to being Ray Charles;&

LADY_KNIGHTS said:

Your comparing Applesauce to Horseradish sauce!! Of course they are sauces but they just aren't quite the same.

Sammy I know your DD has played and pitched at the top levels but I just don't agree with you on this and think it's a fight that just isn't worth fighting.

Click to expand...

So your saying my daughter can use her Yellow Catalyst it's illegal but, there were thousands of them bought and payed for so why let a pesky little thing like being ILLEGAL get in the way.

Yes thats exactly what I said, look back at my previous posts and see where I was talking about Catalyst Bats.

***Mark this down...Within the next 3 years they will remove the leap as being called an illegal pitch***

No advantage is gained by itplain and simple!!! It's to hard to enforce on a regular basis, and by calling it it slows down the game and becomes a distraction. When your trying to gain a fan base the last thing you want to do is drive people away. Call the crow hop but remove the leap. JMHO

If nothing is really gained from it why do it ?????????????????

LADY_KNIGHTS said:

***Mark this down...Within the next 3 years they will remove the leap as being called an illegal pitch***

No advantage is gained by itplain and simple!!! It's to hard to enforce on a regular basis, and by calling it it slows down the game and becomes a distraction. When your trying to gain a fan base the last thing you want to do is drive people away. Call the crow hop but remove the leap. JMHO

Click to expand...

If no advantage is gained, why is it ILLEGAL?????