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I had the chance to meet quite a few of the OFC regulars this weekend, but didn't actually realize I had met you until I saw this post. I was the 1B umpire in the championship game.
ASA Tournament 4th Annual Halloween Howl Fest - 2012 ASA "A" National Qualifier - Oct. 22nd-23rd
I had the chance to meet quite a few of the OFC regulars this weekend, but didn't actually realize I had met you until I saw this post. I was the 1B umpire in the championship game.
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I'm a regular viewer of your OFC posts Bretman, and was wondering if you were there somewhere! With all the problems this past weekend , I will give credit where it is due, I think the umpiring was fantastic overall, so kudos to you and your counterparts! Thought it was nice when our plate ump in that championship game told some of our Hawks parents that the pitching in that game was the best he had seen from that entire tourney. And I would have to agree...that Classics pitcher was TOUGH, and we were not only REALLY proud of our pitcher in that game, but our other 2 pitchers were on top of their games this weekend. Thanks Bretman, for all you do for our girls!!!
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I knew when I saw the umpiring crew for the championship game it would be an expertly officiated game. I even offered to give Glen a 4th opinion if he needed any help and he said he would let me know! lol
Bret: I don’t remember the name of the third base umpire but I have seen him work many games over the years. I am always impressed with his knowledge and desire to make the correct call. Nice job guys.
Congrats to the Hawks for a great tournament run and a well played championship game.
I am sure we will be seeing you a lot next summer.
Bret: I don’t remember the name of the third base umpire but I have seen him work many games over the years. I am always impressed with his knowledge and desire to make the correct call. Nice job guys.
Congrats to the Hawks for a great tournament run and a well played championship game.
I am sure we will be seeing you a lot next summer.
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That was Mike at 3B. Very experienced umpire and one of the guys I always enjoy working with. The same can be said of Glen. They're both low-key guys that don't get overly excited or worked up and they are both dedicated to doing things the right way.
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Bretman- no kidding.. I wish I would have know. Great job to you and the crew you were with. Honestly, the umpires all weekend were VERY good. I will have to say hello next time...
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Bretman
Did you umpire this game? If you did; I'm sorry that I didn't know who you were - I probably didn't listen closely enough during the intro & coin flip. I always enjoy reading your very detailed explanations of various calls / situations throughout the season.
BTW - it was a great game and we were very fortunate to come away with the win.
Umpiring crews were very consistent and all did a great job; one guy was a little snippy on Saturday - but no big deal.
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If it's the one I'm thinking of, I was the plate umpire. Honestly, sometimes all those games start to run together after awhile! If I recall, it was a 16U game and it was on field #2.
Besides the single run being scored on a home run, the other thing I remember about the game was the unusual double play turned by the Magic that snuffed out a possible big inning by the Express. Runner on first, base hit to the outfield. The runner tried for third, got thrown out, then the relay throw got the batter going into second. That may have been the key play of the game right there.
Sound familiar?
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Bretman
Yes - Cincy Magic 96 vs. MV Express in first pool play game. Our pitcher had already hit the bomb (I think) and the double play you referenced was obviously huge that late in a 1-0 game. It was one of those games that you knew from the start that it was going to go down to the wire.
So you were behind the plate. I don't think I fussed at you for anything - although I do remember we had to check the courtesy runner rule. They (TD) were allowing teams to use courtesy even if they had subs not in the game. No big deal - we were roster batting anyway. I also think I asked you about the quick pitch rule one time (might have been the next game).
Anyway - glad to have met you and hope to see you again down the road.
Yes - Cincy Magic 96 vs. MV Express in first pool play game. Our pitcher had already hit the bomb (I think) and the double play you referenced was obviously huge that late in a 1-0 game. It was one of those games that you knew from the start that it was going to go down to the wire.
So you were behind the plate. I don't think I fussed at you for anything - although I do remember we had to check the courtesy runner rule. They (TD) were allowing teams to use courtesy even if they had subs not in the game. No big deal - we were roster batting anyway. I also think I asked you about the quick pitch rule one time (might have been the next game).
Anyway - glad to have met you and hope to see you again down the road.
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LOL. That snippy guy WAS Bretman! Too funny. I have to agree though. Sorry Bretman but it looked like you were trying to get into a confrontation. Saturday anyway. Not so on Sunday. I think both sides thought you were a little overzealous with the staying in the box and don't move into you grant time thing. It may the letter of the law but no other ump's handle that strictly and I have never heard anyone complain about it. Didn't realize it was you at the time or I would have introduced myself.
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@itsmagic,
That was definitely the same game!
I double checked with the Umpire-in-Chief after the game and he told me that (in pool play) teams had the option of using either the last batted out or a sub on the bench who had not yet participated in the game as the courtesy runner (which is the standard ASA rule). So I believe that we had that one right. There is often confusion when a tournament throws in those non-standard rules.
On the quick pitches, there were actually three different situations that came up. Early in the game, the Express pitcher was cutting it kind of close and rolling through with her pitch almost the instant I put the ball into play (pointed at the picher and said "Play"). So, I began holding up a hand while the batters were getting set to make extra sure there weren't any quick pitches. The Express pitcher did try to throw a pitch while I still had my hand up (which means play is suspended, or "time out"). I immediately called "no pitch", let everybody re-set and asked the pitcher not to pitch when my hand was up.
A little later (can't remember which team was at bat on this one), after the batter was set I put the ball into play, the pitcher started her motion, then the batter said "time" and stepped out of the box. I did not grant time. The pitcher aborted her pitch at that point. By rule, the batter cannot request time once the pitcher starts her motion. Since no pitch was delivered, this was also a "no pitch". I also warned that batter not to call time once the pitcher had started her motion.
On the third one (which I believe is the one we had a conversation about) your batter was at the plate. I had my hand up the entire time she was getting set in the box. Once she appeared to be set and ready, I put the ball into play. The pitcher started her motion, then the batter asked for time and took a step away from the plate. I did not grant time, because we're not supposed to at that point- the pitch had already started. On this one, the pitcher completed her delivery. When this happens, we are supposed to call the pitch just like any other, based on it's relation to the strike zone. It was right down the middle and I called it a strike.
I didn't really see this one as a quick pitch at all, since I had held my hand up to the pitcher the entire time your batter was getting ready. I didn't put the ball into play until it looked like she was fully set, in position and appeared ready to receive a pitch. Then a few seconds passed before the pitcher started her motion and your batter asked for time. I'm not really sure why she asked for time, since she seemed to be ready and the pitcher wasn't taking too much time to start the pitch.
There were a couple of other unusual calls in that game, one that went against each team. On one, I called an Express batter for being out of the box on a slap. That is a call you shouldn't make unless you're 100% sure you saw it, and on that one I was sure I did. Her front foot was planted about 6-8 inches out in front of the line when she hit the ball.
On the other, one of your batter's bunted, left the box and started toward first and it looked to me like her foot hit the ball (accidently, not on purpose), so I called her out for interference. Her foot barely touched it, which is a bad break for her...but it's still interference.
Then we had the one where your pitcher asked me the count, and I thought that she asked where the pitch was (it was about chin high on the batter). Both catchers were asking, "Where was that one, Blue?", on pitches that were WAY out of the strike zone and I was getting kind of tired of it! I didn't think that she was asking about the count because right before that pitch I had held up a finger on each hand and said, "One ball, one strike". That was my bad for misunderstanding what she had asked. Sorry about that!
While I'm apologizing, I will note that there was one pitch early in the game where you pitcher though she had strike three, but I called it a ball. It was around the knees and near the inside corner. The only problem was that your catcher moved up and in to get the pitch and completely blocked my view at the last second. So maybe I missed that one. I think that the batter grounded out on the next pitch. Your catcher did seem to work awfully close to the plate and I did have to adjust to that. I had to set up a little bit higher to see over her and that seemed to help.
Anyway...you have a good team and it was a pleasure working these games for you!
That was definitely the same game!
I double checked with the Umpire-in-Chief after the game and he told me that (in pool play) teams had the option of using either the last batted out or a sub on the bench who had not yet participated in the game as the courtesy runner (which is the standard ASA rule). So I believe that we had that one right. There is often confusion when a tournament throws in those non-standard rules.
On the quick pitches, there were actually three different situations that came up. Early in the game, the Express pitcher was cutting it kind of close and rolling through with her pitch almost the instant I put the ball into play (pointed at the picher and said "Play"). So, I began holding up a hand while the batters were getting set to make extra sure there weren't any quick pitches. The Express pitcher did try to throw a pitch while I still had my hand up (which means play is suspended, or "time out"). I immediately called "no pitch", let everybody re-set and asked the pitcher not to pitch when my hand was up.
A little later (can't remember which team was at bat on this one), after the batter was set I put the ball into play, the pitcher started her motion, then the batter said "time" and stepped out of the box. I did not grant time. The pitcher aborted her pitch at that point. By rule, the batter cannot request time once the pitcher starts her motion. Since no pitch was delivered, this was also a "no pitch". I also warned that batter not to call time once the pitcher had started her motion.
On the third one (which I believe is the one we had a conversation about) your batter was at the plate. I had my hand up the entire time she was getting set in the box. Once she appeared to be set and ready, I put the ball into play. The pitcher started her motion, then the batter asked for time and took a step away from the plate. I did not grant time, because we're not supposed to at that point- the pitch had already started. On this one, the pitcher completed her delivery. When this happens, we are supposed to call the pitch just like any other, based on it's relation to the strike zone. It was right down the middle and I called it a strike.
I didn't really see this one as a quick pitch at all, since I had held my hand up to the pitcher the entire time your batter was getting ready. I didn't put the ball into play until it looked like she was fully set, in position and appeared ready to receive a pitch. Then a few seconds passed before the pitcher started her motion and your batter asked for time. I'm not really sure why she asked for time, since she seemed to be ready and the pitcher wasn't taking too much time to start the pitch.
There were a couple of other unusual calls in that game, one that went against each team. On one, I called an Express batter for being out of the box on a slap. That is a call you shouldn't make unless you're 100% sure you saw it, and on that one I was sure I did. Her front foot was planted about 6-8 inches out in front of the line when she hit the ball.
On the other, one of your batter's bunted, left the box and started toward first and it looked to me like her foot hit the ball (accidently, not on purpose), so I called her out for interference. Her foot barely touched it, which is a bad break for her...but it's still interference.
Then we had the one where your pitcher asked me the count, and I thought that she asked where the pitch was (it was about chin high on the batter). Both catchers were asking, "Where was that one, Blue?", on pitches that were WAY out of the strike zone and I was getting kind of tired of it! I didn't think that she was asking about the count because right before that pitch I had held up a finger on each hand and said, "One ball, one strike". That was my bad for misunderstanding what she had asked. Sorry about that!
While I'm apologizing, I will note that there was one pitch early in the game where you pitcher though she had strike three, but I called it a ball. It was around the knees and near the inside corner. The only problem was that your catcher moved up and in to get the pitch and completely blocked my view at the last second. So maybe I missed that one. I think that the batter grounded out on the next pitch. Your catcher did seem to work awfully close to the plate and I did have to adjust to that. I had to set up a little bit higher to see over her and that seemed to help.
Anyway...you have a good team and it was a pleasure working these games for you!
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Would have loved to have met you, Musty!
I hope maybe that the above post explains about the batters asking for time. With one of the pitchers coming close to throwing a few quick pitches, I was very aware of giving the batters ample time to get set before putting the ball into play. Even after doing that, a couple of batters asked for time just as the pitcher started her motion. The rules say you can't do that, and the umpire manual tells us not to grant time when that happens.
Not trying to appear confrontational. Just trying to enforce the rules as they are written. The flip side of this is that in a different game where I was on the bases, the pitcher started her motion and the plate umpire DID grant a request for time. The defensive coach just about blew a gasket and really started in on the plate umpire. So just how "confrontational" you're being probably depends on which side of the call your team happens to be on.
The last thing you want is for there to be any "cat and mouse" games between the pitcher and the batter, with the pitcher trying to catch the batter off balance or the batters trying to disrupt the pitcher by excessively calling time. Frankly, in this game it seemed to be heading in that direction. My goal is to keep things fair to both teams so that neither side gains an undue advantage. I find the best way to do that is to enforce the rules as they are written.
On asking the batters to keep one foot in the box between pitches, I did ask a couple to do that late in the game. Here's why: With one team having a one-run lead and the clock running down, stepping out of the box and moving up the third base line to get signals or take practice swings delays the game. Keeping one foot in the box between pitches is a rule specifically designed to avoid game delays. The rule book gives the umpire the discretion to warn the batter, or issue a penalty strike for delay of game. I chose to warn the batter and they got right back in the box when I did. At that point in the game I didn't want there to be any issues about stalling, so I again enforced the rule as written.
What if I had let them continue stepping out? Then the other coach could of had a legitimate complaint about not enforcing the rule and them trying to run out clock. If I can head off those kind of things by simply enforcing the rule as it's written, I'll go ahead and enforce the rule every time.
Hope that makes sense!
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Bretman
All those situations you described were what I call "part of the game" calls. I have no problem with any of them. Umpires have to call what they see - not what they think they see. Only time I have problems with umpires are when they don't hustle or take offense if I don't agree with all of their calls. Especially when they are judgement calls.
I respectfully let them know what I think and then move on.
I personally don't think that either team was purposely attempting to gain an upper hand. It was just a tough, well fought game. My opinion wouldn't have changed had we wound up on the short end of the stick.
All those situations you described were what I call "part of the game" calls. I have no problem with any of them. Umpires have to call what they see - not what they think they see. Only time I have problems with umpires are when they don't hustle or take offense if I don't agree with all of their calls. Especially when they are judgement calls.
I respectfully let them know what I think and then move on.
I personally don't think that either team was purposely attempting to gain an upper hand. It was just a tough, well fought game. My opinion wouldn't have changed had we wound up on the short end of the stick.
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Maybe not. I see pitchers all the time that maybe just have a little too much adrenaline flowing and are a little too gung-ho about getting the pitch off as quickly as possible. They might not even realize that they're close to committing a quick pitch. Sometimes you do have to slow them down and make extra sure the batters are given ample time to be set and ready.
I also see players ask for time and just assume they have it, when they don't, fairly often. They need to realize that they can request time, but you don't have time out until the umpire actually grants it and you can't get time once the pitcher is starting the pitch.
Speaking of hustle...on the front end of the double play mentioned earlier, I hope that you noticed that the plate umpire was right on top of it at third base!
That is the standard rotation on that play- plate umpire has the lead runner, base umpire has the trailing runner. As the plate umpire, you don't get too many chances to bang somebody out at third like that so that was kind of fun!
Yes, this was a great game and one of the most fun to umpire I had all season. Hope to see all of you out on the field again!
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You did one of our games on Sunday too (Xpress vs Classics). Great job thank you. I'd like to get my DD's field glove restrung and wish I would have thought of it Sunday, I could have left it with you before we went home. I will mail it.
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Bretman
On the one foot in the box call. Late in the game, close game, time running out, one side is trying to make every moment count. The other side is hoping time will slip away. Each side is right in their position.
With the exception of that one call to keep your foot in the box (maybe the first time I've seen it called all year) every girl in every game steps out on every pitch to swing the bat and get signs. Literally every pitch. I personally hate it, but it has become part of the game.
So when you, trying to avoid accusations of stalling, give that warning you might actually "spook" at batter, who suddenly is forced to do something she has not ever done, and is not used to doing. Playing that out, I could envision a scenario where an emotional girl (we've never seen one of those) suddenly views your warning as confrontational, gets wound up, hacks at the first pitch, strikes out, grounds out, you name it. In that case, the team trying to speed up play just got handed a big gift. Batter's timing was off, she was off balance, advantage pitcher.
Now, the reality is that didn't happen in this case. Everything was fine, no gaskets were blown, didn't seriously bother anyone. So perhaps you were right. But taking this to extremes, I would hate, late in a close game, to suddenly "go by the book," when that is something that is contrary to way the game is played the other 95 percent of the time (like calling traveling in the 4th quarter of an NBA finals game....HAH!).
I would rather see a situation where, in a close game, top of 5, 20-25 min to go, you go to both coaches and tell them you will not allow any dawdling on either side, either at the plate, on defense, talking to pitchers, whatever. Then it's all upfront.
On the one foot in the box call. Late in the game, close game, time running out, one side is trying to make every moment count. The other side is hoping time will slip away. Each side is right in their position.
With the exception of that one call to keep your foot in the box (maybe the first time I've seen it called all year) every girl in every game steps out on every pitch to swing the bat and get signs. Literally every pitch. I personally hate it, but it has become part of the game.
So when you, trying to avoid accusations of stalling, give that warning you might actually "spook" at batter, who suddenly is forced to do something she has not ever done, and is not used to doing. Playing that out, I could envision a scenario where an emotional girl (we've never seen one of those) suddenly views your warning as confrontational, gets wound up, hacks at the first pitch, strikes out, grounds out, you name it. In that case, the team trying to speed up play just got handed a big gift. Batter's timing was off, she was off balance, advantage pitcher.
Now, the reality is that didn't happen in this case. Everything was fine, no gaskets were blown, didn't seriously bother anyone. So perhaps you were right. But taking this to extremes, I would hate, late in a close game, to suddenly "go by the book," when that is something that is contrary to way the game is played the other 95 percent of the time (like calling traveling in the 4th quarter of an NBA finals game....HAH!).
I would rather see a situation where, in a close game, top of 5, 20-25 min to go, you go to both coaches and tell them you will not allow any dawdling on either side, either at the plate, on defense, talking to pitchers, whatever. Then it's all upfront.
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I'd rather see us play 5, 6 or 7 innings with no clock.
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Interesting observations...
While one side might be hoping that "time slips away" (the side with the lead, obviously) they have to operate within the framework of the rules. For instance, pitchers have 20 seconds to deliver the pitch and batters have 10 seconds to get positioned in the box. If players are skirting those rules, the umpire should address it.
I can't really agree that "every batter, in every game, on every pitch" is leaving the box. This is something that, as a plate umpire, I'm aware of and watching for. Let's just say that I can never recall a game where I gave 100 warnings to keep a foot in the box, or any single time that I ever imposed a penalty strike for this rule violation!
(A couple of notes on this rule: 1) Be aware that it is an ASA rule that doesn't apply to all sanctioning bodies; 2) Even the ASA rule has exceptions. If the pitch was swung at, if the pitch forced the batter out of the box, if there was a wild pitch or passed ball, if the ball was batted foul, if time was called for some reason or if the pitcher or catcher leave their positions are all exceptions where the batter is permitted to exit the batter's box. So, you may see a batter leave the box sometimes and it's not a rule violation.)
I don't know if I can buy the argument about a batter getting "spooked" because this rule is enforced. A competent umpire should still be giving the batter every one of the ten seconds she's allowed to get set and comfortable, and should not be allowing the pitcher to pitch until the batter is set and ready.
I can't really see going to both coaches with a "pre-emptive" warning about stalling. Now that might be viewed as confrontational, especially if stalling had not been an issue up to that point. Generally, the best time to address a rule violation is when/if the violation actually occurs, not to give advance warnings just because something "might" happen. The "upfront" part of that method is that these rules are already in the rule book and the coaches should already be aware of them.
It kind of surprises me that people would be confused about an umpire enforcing a rule that's been in the books for years. The sole intent of the rule is to prevent delays in the game. In the game in question, we had a team with a one-run lead, time running out, whose batter (illegally) left the box, went about ten feet up the third base line and stood there for a long series of signals. This is a rule violation and I addressed it by asking the batter to get back in the box. The violation never happened again after that.
On almost any call you make, one team or the other might get upset. If I'm going to have somebody upset with me, I would rather have them be upset because I'm enforcing a rule exactly as it appears in the rule book than because I'm ignoring the rules and just letting the players do whatever they want to!
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Good to hear
