Hitting and Hitters Discussion Bat Weight & Hand Path

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Len you ask great question...I would love to meet you sometime.

I have for years taught lining up the finger knuckles up just because everyone said line them up.

Last year after the NFCA convention Don Slaught called me and we did an email conference where you sign on and he can telestrate from his lap top on mine and takes control. He had been talking to some of the coaches I work with and the finger knuckles came up. We started looking at MLB players and noticed Albert Pujolses was one of the MLB players who did in fact line up the finger knuckles. He explained he did this to create tension in the back shoulder and it was more of a style thing for AP than mechanics. He went on to explain when he was with the Tigers they cut their tube sock tops off and put it on the top hand position of the bat to facilitate the top hand being loose and rotating as they swing. I put him on the speaker phone and got a bat and used the opposing grip as he explained it and when I swung the bat at contact the finger knuckles lined back up as you described at contact. What I noticed after a few swings is that lining up the finger knuckles seem to make me feel like I was rolling over at contact a little verses as being opposed.

What I found interesting was when you lined up the finger knuckles you have a tendency to keep the back elbow too far down and in too close to the body. When you use the opposed grip the back elbow clocks higher with no tension and the elbow slots with less effort. I also felt the palm up and palm down position felt stronger at contact.

Don went on to show Luis Gonzaleous swinging on RVP and allowing the bat to slide out to the finger tips to get more whipping action and bat speed. I ask why they use so much pine tar and his response was to keep it from sliding out of the hand completelty.

I told Don I would try it on some of the kids and let him know how it worked. After about 40 kids we found we were making better contact and hitting the ball more squarely and the next huge issue was we picked up 2 to 4 MPH on bat speed. I understand it was not just the grip it was also allowing the bat to come into the slot with better action and power.

To get the hitter to feel it better I took the shrink wrap plastic like they use to put ice bags on a pitchers shoulder with and put a couple layers of it where the top hand is positioned to get them use to the feel of it. Then we made sure they did not clamp down the thumb over the index finger and away they went. After a while we take off the shrink wrap.

We had better power numbers this year than the year before. The hitters had no difficulty making the switch once they felt the difference in power and they commented they felt they had better bat control also.

One of the ways we demonstrate this is too have them open their hand and we put a finger on the bottom hand where the fingers join at the palm of the hand. Have the hitter hold it tightly and try to pull your finger out and you will not be able to do it. Then repeat in the top hand and move it about a half inch in towards the palm of the hand but not in the back of the hand and grip the finger tightly and you will be able to slide it out of their hand. This is why the top hand can rotate on the bat handle.

We no longer line up the finger knuckles and it seems to have worked out perfectly.

 

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Cocking the lead wrist.


What are your thoughts on this.
How important is this in the swing.
What does it help accomplish


Straightleg

 

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Straightleg

I guess it depends on your definition of "cocked". If you me mean "cocked" to the point of the bat being horizontal to the tops of the shoulders then my answer would be no. Having said that, I do believe that the wrists should be slightly cocked so the barrel of the bat is pointing slightly behind the batters head and at an upward angle of roughly 50 to 55 degrees from horizontal in the stance. It increases the bat speed by a few mph's. It's importance depends on what you want your end result to be. Do you just want to push the ball or do you want to hit the ball as hard as you can? Having the lead wrist not cocked at all would result in the inability to release the wrists, therefore pushing the ball with the bat.

Len

 

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I think of it as one of those old physics laws "every action has an equal and opposite reaction". Isn't this the reason for the loading and the wrist action at toe touch to be able to produce the forward moves?

 

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Wow this is a good thread ,fairly new on this site but been around all the same pretty in depth conversation without all the crack head comments .Nice site.

 

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Len to get them to feel the difference in the position of the wrist as to cocked or rolled we have them make a fist and I hold the palm of my hand up and they put their fist into the palm of my hand so their wrist is flexed and they push on the palm of my hand and they will feel it is a strong position. Now we have them roll the wrist slightly so the wrist turns in a little and repeat and they can not generate as much force forward.

The kids that roll the shoulder in too far and bring the hands in closer to the body are the ones that usually turn the wrist in too far as they are swinging around the ball verses being able to keep the hands inside the path of the ball.

The other thing we do is sit in a chair so we are lower than the hitter and I hold up the palm of my hand fingers up and tell them to lower the elbow to the slot and hit the palm of my hand with their elbow hard. Usually they try to push their hand forward and the back hip will not move. When they bring the elbow down forcefully the hip will activate and the shoulders try to rotate more. We give them a bat quickly and tell them to repeat that move and hit a ball off a tee so they will remember what it feels like.

 

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I quit posting on baseball 101 and other fastpitch sites for that reason.
Pissing match.




Len.
You have the bat going straight back. You cock your lead wrist, by making a little v between your hand and arm.
You also tilt the bat like you are going to tap your helmet.

With the lead wrist cocked you are saying it helps pull the bat with the lead arm and helps take away the pushing with the back arm , which will help you with bat lag and not release early

Is that what you are saying about cocking the lead wrist.



Also like your thoughts on this Howard. Is this right?


Straightleg

 

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Two examples of Stance extremes that come to mind are Soriano and Bonds. They are pretty much opposite in where their hands are in their Stance, or preparation phase. Soriano - with those "over the head" hands, and Bonds - hands actually are very low. However, at Toe Touch, just before launch, they are nearly identical.

Young kids (especially baseball boys) pick up these cues from TV, and that's where the problems start. But, in watching all the major leaguers frozen at the Toe Touch position, they are incredibly similar. They have all developed their own repeatable "style" of dancing with the pitcher to develop a rhythm and sense of timing. But Critical Mass is at Toe Touch.

It's at the Toe Touch position that I am watching the angle and position of the bat, plus the hand position, in relation to the hitter's body. The angle of the bat barrel indicates the degree of wrist cock.

With most elite baseball hitters (as shown with RVP), at Toe Touch the barrel tends to be hovering above the top of the helmet. At launch, the barrel doesn't tend to tip as the hands start moving. Elite hitters seem to maintain this "wrist hinge angle" right down to the Bat Lag position. It seems that maintaining this wrist angle prevents the bat barrel from "casting out" during the swing. Of course keeping the hands, arms and shoulders "connected" and turning as a unit with the shoulders is key. This is what defines the "Hand Path". Girls that allow the wrists to unhinge early are very susceptible to casting, and once the barrel starts outside, the momentum of the barrel will keep it going. An end loaded bat will only increase this momentum caused by a poor start. So it's not the end-loaded bat that inherently causes the casting, it's the improper hand path, etc., that happens to get magnified by the extra momentum of the "heavier" barrel.

Coming up through travel ball with my DD I saw some very ugly teaching. One coach instructed his whole team to start with the elbows down (classic "upside-down V"), and the bat barrel tipped back towards the catcher. I saw straight up bats, bats laying over the back perpendicular to the pitch path. It's no wonder that there were so many casting, looping swings.

I've heard it said that learning to hit well takes a "systems approach". Everything has to work together. This discussion about bat position and wrist cocking/loading is only one small part of a huge system of "whole body movements" that must be executed with exellent timing. Trying to fix one "perceived problem" without knowing what else is going on in the swing could actually make things worse. IMO, there are far too many parents looking for that "quick fix" to make their DD a power hitter. That new $250 bat for example. We all know that story.

Getting more parents involved in discussing and studying hitting mechanics is far more productive than going out and buying expensive equipment. There is a clinic this coming weekend hosted by (IMO ) the most knowledgeable hitting instructor this side of the Mississippi. Instead of looking for that "quick fix", get down to the Cinci area and start on a "systems approach" to being a better hitter! Yeah, it's a shameless plug, but I know of few guys that study this stuff more on an ongoing basis than HC, and actually have proof that their teaching really works.

 

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Sammy coming up thru travel ball with, my oldest taught me that many of the coaches didn't have a clue about hitting. Good post. I Told myself I was going to learn what was the best methods this time around when my youngest started. I spent a bunch of money attending camps and clinics. It still amazes me what is still being taught out there. RVP, Internet sites,like this discussion helps you understand what are the best methods. Still working with a good hitting instructor that shares his ideas puts all the pieces together. Every camp you work you learn something new.

 

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i used to drop my hands all the time....i got help from my dad who coaches 15 16 yr old baseball team and from my coaches no im hittin it to the outfield

 

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Len.
You have the bat going straight back. You cock your lead wrist, by making a little v between your hand and arm.
You also tilt the bat like you are going to tap your helmet.

- If I am picturing your definition correctly then yes, we are essentially saying the same thing. I would say that the bat and the lead forearm are at a 90 degree angle.

With the lead wrist cocked you are saying it helps pull the bat with the lead arm and helps take away the pushing with the back arm , which will help you with bat lag and not release early.

Is that what you are saying about cocking the lead wrist.

- Not exactly. I've seen many bad swings in my day even though the batter's initial setup was solid. I've seen wrist release as the first motion after the load. I've seen a cocked wrist remain cocked during and after impact. The batter has to conciously retain the 90 degree angle between the bat and lead forearm through the zone. Some instructors call it "the box", referring to the shape the batters arms make going through the zone (both arms bent at 90 degree angles). What I am saying is a cocked wrist contains additional potential energy for the batter. If the batter never releases the wrists at impact then no additional energy is realized. If the batter realeases the wrists too soon (before impact) then the energy was wasted and not transferred to the ball. The wrists must release right at point of impact in order to realize its full potential, converting the potential energy to kinetic energy.

Also like your thoughts on this Howard. Is this right?

 

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Here's Chris O'Leary's website which has different baseball and a few fastpitch swings. Disclaimer: Chris O'Leary is a rotational guy and I am not supporting his teachings nor his product. I just think the video clips and the flip books are interesting to watch. O'Leary does have some good comments, especially in the flip books. It's kind of funny that O'Leary teaches a rotational hand path. One of his favorite hitters is Albert Pujols, which seems to have a very linear hand path. Go figure.

Len

http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Hitting/ProfessionalHitterAnalyses/

 

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Len
Very good video's your right really enjoyed
Thanks

 

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Len - What puzzles and amazes me is that there continues to be a "Linear" camp and a "Rotational" camp with hitting. I understand how that came about maybe 15 or 20 years ago. But with the advent of relatively cheap video technology, we aren't simply guessing at what the elite hitters are doing like we used to. We were looking at the same thing 20 years ago, but the difference is that today it's MUCH easier with the tools available.

Chris' PDF analysis is compelling, but notice the WORDS he uses. Like most descriptions of hitting mechanics, the choice of words and phrases can easily muddy the waters. But by having a series of pictures to actually see and compare, we are then looking at the SAME thing, only with a differently worded description. The pictures don't lie, but very often the accompanying description is saying something very different. And that's where you step back, eliminate the commentary, look at the picture, and simply say: "Do it this way".

IMO, an extremely useful tool that needs added to this forum would be a video analysis section, where pics, animated GIFs and the like could be posted for discussion and analysis. Maybe it's already here, and I just haven't found it yet?

 

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You're absolutely right Sammy. That's why I say Chris has "some" good comments. And you're also right about terminology. To be honest with you, the only reason hitting coaches change terminology is so they can re-package an ages old hitting style and call their own so they can sell it. For instance, what Chris calls the "power V" I call "full extension" concerning terminology differences.

Len