Favorite Format for a Tournament

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5 gg double elimination
70 min with 5 innings min. 7 innings champ.
2 uumps
lossers bracket plays for 3rd place.
run rule 12 @ 4, 10 @ 5, 8 @ 6.
 
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So Cal dad, We had 6 FP tournaments at Beavercreek last year--most with multiple age groups-- I saw the team from the loser's brackets win several times. Now, you talk about a long Sunday--it's already 7Pm when the championship game is decided and then there's one more game to be played. As a TD you know that kids are tired, the umps are tired, and when people are tired, things more easily go wrong--not to mention injuries. But, the parents of the team that forced the if game are fired up while the parents of the team that lost the game demand their day in court to avenge the loss. I wasn't the TD, but to his credit, he had written into his rules that if the IF game would only be 75 minutes and not a full game. When I ran tournaments, I pretty much went with team's desires on number of games, but personally I tend to like 2 pool games then into double elimination with the rule that at if the undefeated team gets beat in the championship game then declaring both teams co-champions (since both teams have one loss). The other negative thing about double elimination is the winner of the winner's bracket has to sit for a couple of games waiting to play. I actually had a team yell at me for making them sit so long but finally got an apology when I shoed them the bracket and asked them how they would have made it go any faster--LOL!!
 
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Prexyfan ... liked your suggestion for the most part, but don't think their needs to be a 3rd place game. Once you've gone through a double elimination meat grinder and you lose that second game and know you can't win it all, you are ready to go home.

Tourn Director ... hear what you are saying about the "if" games, but that means that last game is only for a "tie" in effect, and ties are still like kissing your sister in my mind ... I will bet most of those teams really want to play a championship game.
 
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All games should be a full 7 innings unless the mercy rule plays a factor. I am all for big tournaments with alot of different teams but I think the money making situation has gotten out of control and that is why all tournaments are pushing for more teams. Do A and B tournaments and this will limit the amount of teams in one tournament. I think you could go 7 innings then. The other option is to have 90 minute game times and take as many teams as your complex will allow. I think most games would be complete in 90 minutes.
 
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5 gg double elimination
70 min with 5 innings min. 7 innings champ.
2 uumps
lossers bracket plays for 3rd place.
run rule 12 @ 4, 10 @ 5, 8 @ 6.

In a Double Elimination tourney there is a clear 3rd place.......
 
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Coachjwb--- the teams do consider a tie like kissing your sister and I certainly wouldn't advocate this approach for the nationals --it is more for local tournaments. I think playing 6 to 7 games in a row can really hurt a team overall since it does take a toll physically, especially in hot weather. In the heat of the moment, competitiveness usually trumps being reasonable. I have run lots of very successful 23U events and at that age, being reasonable trumps competitiveness-- with that age group I have done DE events where the highest place a team can get back to is 3rd place with the 1st and 2d places decided by who wins the championship game and teams have never complained-- to them the physical toll and time to do more games isn't as important.
 
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Goodness, all this tournament talk has got me darn near hyperventilating for softball, and it's still 12 weeks before TB starts.
 
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I think the 6-7 gg, keeps the teams with less strength and talent away. (I say this knowing I have been that team.) If you want to get solid teams raise the price, raise the minutes played, and raise the gg.
5-7gg
$450-$525
90min finish inning
2 umps (why only have one? They get lonely?)
Below is straight from bat wars 2012....
POOL PLAY GAME LENGTH
a. Time limit on all games is 90 minutes
FROM THE SCHEDULED
START TIME!
This will help keep the tournament on time for the other
teams, fans and spectators, even if this results in a shorter game.
*****
NEW THIS YEAR ***-the only exception to this is if in the
umpires sole opinion an injury has delayed the game more than 5
minutes, he/she shall be able to extend the ending time by 10 minutes
.
Umpire?s time is official time. No inning shall start after 90 minutes,
however current inning will be completed (unless home team is ahead and
at bat). If suspended inning lasts past the scheduled end time, the inning
will not be continued and the final score will revert back to the last
completed inning. An inning shall start upon the last out of the previous
inning. Tie games are allowed and shall be recorded as such. In the event
of a tie, and time has not expired, the international tiebreaker will be used.
b. The championship games will have no time limit.
 
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Interesting discussion. I can tell you from experience that nothing is worse than the Drop Dead revert back. I have never run a tournament using this format. I also hate tie-games in any tournament. At least play one inning extra to try to resolve it. Also, finish an inning in an eighty minute game is reasonable. The eighty minute game is usually a good amount of time if: Coaches co-operate and get players on and off the field and do not complain when umpires move the game along. I have seen some teams that take five minutes to get on the field and get going. Everyone wants more playing time, unless they need to spend the time "passing on words of wisdom" every half inning and every other batter.

The number of teams is a double edged sword for Directors, Ii is easy to be the third party and say "just turn them away." but most TD want kids to play, this is why they are there. If it is so easy and such a money maker, why doesn't everyone do it? The organizations parents are required to help and this is a major undertaking for them as well.. The weather is the major problem. If you play 80 minute games, finish the inning and teams co-operate and get on and off the field, games will go quick. 90 minute games in Pool Play are a havoc to schedule as you end up with all kind of weird starting times! A larger tournament, especially later in the year is preferred by most coaches, The caveat being if it rains, then the organization is bunch of money hungry gold diggers!

I can tell you as an umpire, nothing is worse than standing there watching some coach trying to teach his players basic fielding or doing the "you go to first, you go to right field, etc when the next inning should be started. Also, teams need to BE READY to start early as almost all tournaments say in the rules. This means you (coach or designated parent) needs to check the field you are scheduled on have pitcher warmed-up and line-up ready or at least close. When I umpire, I want the kids to play more and the minimal amount of time I have to waste watching nothing happen is good for me and them. I watched a team in a 70 minute indoor game, waste at least 3 minutes each inning going on defense and they were losing! Had they been winning, the other team would have complained they were wasting time on purpose, but this group is just not prepared in my opinion.

The eternal argument about too many teams and trying to make money can be valid, however with sanction fees, field rental, balls, umpires,awards and the other things that go into the tournament, there is no money being made on fees. Profit comes in from concessions and parking fees, which are a necessary evil for many organizations, due to costs.Also, the cost to to the organization is significantly higher for a qualifier.

I would ask this. If a tournament offered 5 games at $500 with no fees or 5 games at $400 with three dollar per adult entry fee, which would coaches look to. When you look down the list of tournaments and you see 5 games for $500 or 5 games for $400, which is going to get "clicked on." Remember this is what you see when looking at the list. Having an expanded listing of the forum which shows entry or parking fees may be worthwhile. I suspect many tournaments get passed over with lower overall costs just due to limited research.


In the end, I have come to believe that too often we as adults get to hung-up in "what can we do to make it better (often for our team)" and not let them just PLAY. My favorite story was a game at a State Tournament a few years ago when coaches got into a debate with plate umpire about some insignificant issue. as it went on, I walked in from my Field Umpire slot to see if we could move this along with two "brilliant umpire minds," instead of just one, and one of the players ask me; "Why can't they just let us play! She wasn't talking about the umpires!
 
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Bob ... several good points and thoughts there. There are some coaches/teams who I agree are really slow between innings, and they do need to be moved along for sure. On the other hand, I've seen some umpires (including one at an ASA Eastern Regionals where there was 2 hours between game times) who are "time Nazi's", and who allowed no conferences and were constantly yelling about hurrying things up and sorry, that's not right either ... players and coaches can get intimidated and it ****s the fun out of the game. I actually got in the face of the one at the Regionals in between innings about it (those who know me know that is rare), and the opposing coach came to my defense as well, and the ump toned down his attitude the rest of the the game.

I love the 80 minute finish the inning format, and am actually fine with a tie in pool games. I'd much rather have that than something arbitrary like most runners to 3B! I know an extra inning can really mess up the rest of the schedule, and there's just no reason you can't live with a tie in a pool game. I don't totally buy the statement that most TD's just want to give the opportunity for more girls to play ... there are plenty of other tournaments every weekend. Most of the TD's are there to make money for their organizations, and that's OK, I get it.

I know some teams are very sensitive about the cost of tourneys, but to me it's so much more about the quality of the competition in the tournament, the reputation of the tournament to put on a quality experience, quality of the fields, etc. I would be glad for my teams to spend an extra $50-100 per tournament to have longer games, two umps, a family atmosphere, and lots of other good teams there. Good examples of that are GAPSS and Stingrays who charge a lot more but which most every team wants to get into.
 
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We use the 5gg with no new inning after 80 minutes and finish the inning. Final score is the final score for pool games (ties stand).
We use the 4 pool games for seeding and then play till you loose on Sunday.


If any fields fall behind the waterfall effect cascades through a tournament making all fields late by the end of the day. We schedule in 90 minute blocks and this seems to be adequate to get most games in, at least at the older age groups especially with good pitching. These reliable start times are essential for kids trying to get recruited so that they can let the coaches know when they may play. It is true that we get 8 games a day in with 90 minute games and only 6 games with 120 minutes games, a reduction of 25% of games played on each field. That is the difference between offering a 4gg or 25% less teams. We use 2 umpires at our tourney, 1 is just asking for trouble.

I dislike the double elimination tournaments because playing out of the losers bracket can generate some marathon days of 7-8 games. This maybe okay for some men's league but it is child abuse for our younger kids. The players can't inform a collage coach or their grandparents when they might play or on what field for the majority of the tournament and they are just exhausted by the end of the day. This encourages over use injuries of the pitchers that are not recoverable form before the next tourney.

Please don't go picking on the TD's; all of us are trying to do a good job in order to have a successful tournament and perhaps you'll come back. There are no TD's taking the money earned on these tourneys to buy a vacation homes at the shore. Most tournaments put money back in the pockets of the organizations that sponsor teams reducing their costs. If you think that this is a cash cow go ahead and start your own tourney and see how wealthy you'll become.

I do appreciate the other options being offered and will shameless steal the best ideas put forth.
 
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Fairman ... gosh ... I have been following this thread from the beginning, and I don't think anyone has picked on TD's. The question was posed as to what is a favorite format, and I personally think there's been a lot of good input and discussion. And I think most people realize that the moneys made are for the most part going to the organizations hosting them as a fundraiser ultimately for the girls. I have never personally been a TD but have had a few tourneys where I helped a lot and pretty much spent the whole weekend there, and I know it's a ton of hard work and thankless pain for the dollars made on the tourney.
 
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Another aspect is that if there are enough teams, a TD could divide teams into Gold and Silver brackets with Gold brackets reserved for the teams with better records in pool play-- that means pool play does count for more than meeting the game guarantee and it also makes bracket/division play more competitive. This works fine for the local tournaments but probably wouldn't work for a showcase type event.
 
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Your points are well taken and I do not like umpires who "administer a game" in the way you described above. We don't invite these guys to work with our group when we find them. Umpires do not need to be arbitrary about enforcing rules. My basic attitude and believe is get the players as much time as possible, wether as a coach, umpire or TD. Common sense is still the major factor here and in everything!

When I referred to Tournament Directors they are the operations guys and organization leadership sets fees etc. Teams know when a tournament is being run for just profit and these tournaments tend to disappear quickly. I think we are in general agreement here for the most part. Many times people are not aware of the variations in field rental, cost of sanctioning etc so there needs to be some latitude granted before before you write a tournament off based on costs.

I will always hate tie games, even in Pool play. We are in concurrence on the 80 minute time frame and it sound like you agree to finish the inning. Scheduling every hour and a half gives you ten minutes and in good weather this is workable. The game was not meant to end in a tie and it cheapens the pool games too much, I believe. I also agree the two umpires are critical, perhaps even more so in the younger ages then most think. I also agree things like runners to 3B and then to 2B is dumb and should only be used in case of a monsoon washing out fields etc. Nope, I can't see it happening at all.

The family atmosphere is also very important and I think everyone needs to make this a higher priority. I was gone for two full seasons and part of one more and I noticed how coarse some things have become with a minority of coaches and fans as I got back into umpiring and tournaments.. Maybe it was just as bad and I had become used to it, but I really picked up on when I came back. I had one game at an Eastern tournament in which parents from both teams were cussing each other out in the most explicit terms and a minute or two from fists flying! from this aspect, the old adage of trying out the parents, not the players seems to be true sometimes.

Anyway, your comments and thoughts are excellent and I hope to see you around this year!
 
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we have done this and will probably do it again this year in one tournament. It is especially nice with the younger kids. It would not work in Nationals, Regional or Nationals though.
 
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We added an A or B choice to each age group this coming year. (If there is 12 or more teams an age group.)
We allowed the teams to select which bracket they felt qualified to play at.
So far seems to be working.
 
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Well after considering all the factors fields, time available in the weekend, amount of teams, tournaments goals, etc. I think both the formats below could work for everyone.

4gg
Double elimination (Even though some people think this may be child abuse lol)
70 min finish the inning ( Set game times 90 min apart it leaves time to finish inning and maintain the field.)

OR

5gg
Single elimination
70 min finish the inning ( Set game times 90 min apart it leaves time to finish inning and maintain the field.)

As far as elimination I like full games, but maybe just finals or finals and semi's
 
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Well after considering all the factors fields, time available in the weekend, amount of teams, tournaments goals, etc. I think both the formats below could work for everyone.

4gg
Double elimination (Even though some people think this may be child abuse lol)
70 min finish the inning ( Set game times 90 min apart it leaves time to finish inning and maintain the field.)

OR

5gg
Single elimination
70 min finish the inning ( Set game times 90 min apart it leaves time to finish inning and maintain the field.)

As far as elimination I like full games, but maybe just finals or finals and semi's

If those were my choices, I'd prefer the double elimination choice #1.
 
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There is another format that can be used, but it takes a lot of time in setting up the brackets and teams will not their game times once they move into the brackets---this is a negative for many teams as they have become used to knowing their pool play times and opponents. Let's start by saying it is a 4 game guarantee and you have 16 teams. You could have 8 play games to set up a double elim. In these games there must be a winner/loser. Once these are determined, then the double elim starts with a loser playing a winner. The 4 teams that go 0-2 and out would then play each other in a consolation game to get their 4th game in. Theteams that go 1-2 in double elim would be done since they would have their 4 games in. A variation would be to start right away in double elim and the teams that go 0-2 and 1-2 would be entered into a Silver bracket where the 0-2 teams got at least 2 games in and the 1-2 teams got at least one game in. It gets a lot harder to do this when you have an uneven number of teams, but it can be done.
 

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