Pitching and Pitchers Discussion Pitching-Legal or Illegal

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I don't see anything blantantly illegal in any of those shots. Of course, we're looking at single frame snapshots- a frozen instant in time. Any of these pitchers could have done something a split-second before or after the shot that would render the pitch illegal.

Just going on what we can see here...

William, I would agree with the ones you that you called "legal" in your first post (numbers 1, 3, 4, 5 & 8).

For number 2 and number 6, you called those legal, but "too close to call". I would be curious to know what part of those two deliveries you find questionable.

To me, they both illustrate near-perfect toe drag of the rear/pivot foot. The fact that the pivot foot is in front of and not in contact with the pitcher's plate is irrelevent. The pivot foot is allowed to drag forward away from the plate.

Based on the instant in time that those two pictures were snapped, I see nothing illegal. Their pivot feet are where they're allowed to be. What the pictures don't show is what the pivot foot did before it got to the that position- but it's impossible to weigh evidence that doesn't exist!

You pegged number 7 as illegal for leaping. Granted, there is some air under the pivot foot- maybe 1 or 2 inches. But, it also looks like there is a hole or uneven ground in the area in front of the pitcher's plate. If that is the case, some minimal loss of ground contact is acceptable and allowed under the rules.

So, for number 7, I will grant you that there is the greatest possibility of an infraction than in any of the other pictures. I would need to see more before making a definitive judgment.

Let's assume that there is 1 or 2 inches of air under the pivot foot. Now we are getting into the practicality of an umpire seeing and calling this.

The plate umpire, focused on the pitch, will have a difficult time seeing what the pitcher's rear foot is doing. The amount of space under the pivot foot is negligible and the duration of the foot being in the air might last about 1/8 of a second.

The base umpire, though stationed further away, usually has a better view of pitching infractions involving the pitcher's feet. From his spot on the field, I have to wonder how easily he could detect a 1-2 inch gap that lasts for a duration about equal to a blink of an eye.

If an umpire sees an illegal pitch, he should call it. But he has to be CERTAIN of what he saw! You don't want to guess at a call. There must be sufficient evidence of the infraction and it must be obvious that the pitcher has broken a rule.

Some of the possible pitching infractions are so minute and so brief that they practically defy normal human perception. A still photo or slow-motion video might be able to pick up some of them. Unfortunately, those are not an option for an umpire during a game.

I would sum up my perspective of calling illegal pitches like this: If you see it, call it. But make darn sure you really saw what you think you saw!

 

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I guess the problem that I have is the location of the back foot in relation to where the pitcher is in her rotation. It just seems that to be that far off of the rubber and the pitcher hasn't even reached 12 o'clock yet. But that's just my view. That's why if I see something questionable, I ask the ump and leave it at that.

Picture #1 is a great shot.

 

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I don't see anything blantantly illegal in any of those shots. Of course, we're looking at single frame snapshots- a frozen instant in time. Any of these pitchers could have done something a split-second before or after the shot that would render the pitch illegal.

Just going on what we can see here...

William, I would agree with the ones you that you called "legal" in your first post (numbers 1, 3, 4, 5 & 8).

For number 2 and number 6, you called those legal, but "too close to call". I would be curious to know what part of those two deliveries you find questionable.

To me, they both illustrate near-perfect toe drag of the rear/pivot foot. The fact that the pivot foot is in front of and not in contact with the pitcher's plate is irrelevent. The pivot foot is allowed to drag forward away from the plate.

Based on the instant in time that those two pictures were snapped, I see nothing illegal. Their pivot feet are where they're allowed to be. What the pictures don't show is what the pivot foot did before it got to the that position- but it's impossible to weigh evidence that doesn't exist!

You pegged number 7 as illegal for leaping. Granted, there is some air under the pivot foot- maybe 1 or 2 inches. But, it also looks like there is a hole or uneven ground in the area in front of the pitcher's plate. If that is the case, some minimal loss of ground contact is acceptable and allowed under the rules.

So, for number 7, I will grant you that there is the greatest possibility of an infraction than in any of the other pictures. I would need to see more before making a definitive judgment.

Let's assume that there is 1 or 2 inches of air under the pivot foot. Now we are getting into the practicality of an umpire seeing and calling this.

The plate umpire, focused on the pitch, will have a difficult time seeing what the pitcher's rear foot is doing. The amount of space under the pivot foot is negligible and the duration of the foot being in the air might last about 1/8 of a second.

The base umpire, though stationed further away, usually has a better view of pitching infractions involving the pitcher's feet. From his spot on the field, I have to wonder how easily he could detect a 1-2 inch gap that lasts for a duration about equal to a blink of an eye.

If an umpire sees an illegal pitch, he should call it. But he has to be CERTAIN of what he saw! You don't want to guess at a call. There must be sufficient evidence of the infraction and it must be obvious that the pitcher has broken a rule.

Some of the possible pitching infractions are so minute and so brief that they practically defy normal human perception. A still photo or slow-motion video might be able to pick up some of them. Unfortunately, those are not an option for an umpire during a game.

I would sum up my perspective of calling illegal pitches like this: If you see it, call it. But make darn sure you really saw what you think you saw!

Very well put Bretman, I couldn't add anything else to what you've already said.


FASTPITCH! Anything else, And you're playing to SLOW!

 

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Bretman,

So when the base runner only leaves a little early to steal 2B it is okay just like the pitcher who is only taking a small leap. How many pitchers leap but do not re-plant? I agree with Bill, it is illegal without a doubt on #7. I do not buy into that hole excuse.

 

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If the hole is there, which it usually is, the pivot foot must not drag higher than the level plane of the ground. This is per the ASA rule, and I believe most other sanctions are similar.

In #7 I would say the pivot foot is above the level plane, and she is leaping imho.

 

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I also noted that 7 out of 8 of the pitchers are wearing Ringors.

 

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Bretman,

So when the base runner only leaves a little early to steal 2B it is okay just like the pitcher who is only taking a small leap. How many pitchers leap but do not re-plant? I agree with Bill, it is illegal without a doubt on #7. I do not buy into that hole excuse.

Yes Pic #7 is an Illegal Pitch!

But envision this if you will! On a Ballfield just beyond the pitching rubber dig a hole 3"or 4" inches deep by say 8"-10" inches wide, by say 12"-16" inches long, Now take a Carpenters Level and lay on the ground length wise from the pitching rubber towards home plate over the hole.

Step back to 10'-12' ft. beyond 1st Base. Look at the Level that is laid over the hole that you dug and you will see daylight underneath it.

This is the exactly that happens with a pitcher's foot that is dragging level over the top of the hole. I don't know how to make it any more simple than that.

Sometimes it's not always that cut and dry out there on the field when you're umping, when you only have just a split second to view just what has happened.

As from the runner stealing 2nd base before the release of the ball, She's OUT!

"Now that's the Hole Truth!"

FASTPITCH! Anything else, And you're playing to SLOW!

 

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So when the base runner only leaves a little early to steal 2B it is okay just like the pitcher who is only taking a small leap.

Not exactly what I meant.

When a runner leaves so early that is is blatantly obvious and easy to detect, call her out. But, if she leaves so close to the release of the pitch that there is any doubt of the violation, then don't guess at a call.

If a runner leaves, say, one second before the ball is released, that is an easy call- she's out.

If she leaves- I don't know, pick a number- .10 seconds before the release, now we're getting into fractions of a second that are almost smaller than the average human reaction time can detect. And, it's even harder to detect when you are trying to watch two nearly simultaneous events that are occuring 40 feet apart.

Same with a pitcher's pivot foot leaving the ground. If it's six inches off the ground for half a second, most people can see that. If it's one inch off the ground for an eighth of a second, is that even going to be detectable?

My point was not that it's okay to cheat if it's just a little bit. It was that some infractions can be so tiny and so fleeting that no person could be expected to detect them beyond a reasonable doubt. If that reasonable doubt exists, don't guess at the call and assume a violation.

I agree with Bill, it is illegal without a doubt on #7. I do not buy into that hole excuse.

If you mean that you don't buy into it based on what you see in the one still photo, I cannot argue that point. What you see is what you see, how you evaluate the evidence is up to you and your judgment is your own.

If you mean that you don't buy into it because it's not something specifically covered in various rules, points of emphasis and written interpretations, then I would disagree until the cows come home!

In photo #7, are both feet off the ground? Apparently so. Is the ground where the pivot foot is supposed to drag perfectly flat and level with the the pitcher's plate? For me, that picture doesn't offer any clear-cut evidence one way or the other. It looks like there might be some uneven ground there, but I can't say 100% for sure so I'm not going to guess at the call.

I would call #7 a possible violation, but not a definite one.

 

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Instead of determining which pic is legal or not. A better use woud be analyzing the poor form and technique.

 

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Trakin,

I saw the same thing in some of the photos but I didn't even want to go there. There is lots of room for improvement for the technique.

Bretman and Fastpitch, calling obvious illegal pitches is easy. Like you say, when we are knitpicking some of the smaller nuances, it can be difficult. The field umpire calls most of the illegal pitches, correct? If someone is on base, then his attention is divided into several areas. This makes it very difficult to call an illegal pitch. Most of the illegal pitches that I see called are when there is no runners on base. Then the umpires attention is not as divided, so to speak. And still, trying to pick-up a little infraction can be difficult.

As a coach or parent in the bleachers, I can devote a lot of my time and attention to watching every little move that a pitcher makes. I will probably see something, that I think or know is illegal, that the field umpire does not see. When I see what I think is an illegal pitch, I will mention it to the field umpire. If the umpire watches the pitcher and makes no call, then it is futile for me to keep bringing it up. He doesn't see what I saw. Who knows, he might see it later in the game when I have forgotten all about it and make the call. Life, and the game, is too short to dwell on one knit-picky thing.

 

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Spend alot of time and money teaching the proper pitching technique. The kids catch it all the time and it is tuff to sit there and watch it time and time again and Blue to say it is not a competitive advantage. Any leap is an advantage or it would not be against the rules. With only a plate ump, I can understand not catching a leap. With two it is unexceptable but still happends all the time and at all levels. The little pop out of the rut that is hard to see is not a leap and I would agree not calling that. A leap is not that hard to see and it still rarely gets called. It's tuff on the kids sportsmanship. Don't defend it get better at calling it. Kids pratice to get better so should umpires.