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bretman, if anyone is going to "blow" a call during a game of ours, I hope it's you!!!
;D
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;D
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All hope is restored and now the beer can shared by all ;D ;D
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and sweet/dill pickle dad, no more wasted beer!
(there's times I'm tempted to throw a bottle or 2 at the bottom of the cooler, havent done so yet)
(there's times I'm tempted to throw a bottle or 2 at the bottom of the cooler, havent done so yet)
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I agree this is the way it should be handled, but I had the opposite result in a game last weekend when I remained calm and the opposite coach came screaming on the field. He got the grease and my team got the... well you know what.
Delay steal of home, runner sort of half slides and sticks on the plate and tumbles over on the catcher. Not a major impact, just falls on her more or less. She was safe. (at first call anyway) Opposite coach immediately starts yelling "SHE HAS TO SLIDE< SHE TOOK OUT MY CATCHER! SHE IS OUT< SHE HAS TO SLIDE! IT'S IN THE RULES!!!!" Coach catches himself and then stalks out to the plate umpire saying all the same things a bit more calmly. The plate umpire considers it and calls my runner out. Inning over, defense leaves the field. I walk over to the umps now standing together and ask why she was called out. "She has to slide" I remind him there is no such rule in the book, it was a clean play, the girl was safe and on top of that the catcher was obstructing the plate without the ball. The base ump says he agrees with me but they won't reverse the call. I say why not? Well they already left the field. What??? My team didn't leave the field, this is costing my team a run and there is no reason not to get it right. Sorry, we won't reverse the call. Of course we go on to lose by one run. Maybe it didn't cost us the game as there were other opportunities to win we failed to take advantage of, but it sure didn't help.
My points are these.
#1 I can't find a thing in the NSA rules requiring a slide. "The runner is out if the runner remains on her feet and there is deliberate contact with great force." It was not deliberate and it was hardly with great force. Yes it's a judgement call, but that wasn't the call he made IMO.
#2 Why not make the call right? There was no further play involved as no one else was on base.
#3 Why does the coach with the biggest mouth who yells the loudest get the call? Especially when he is yelling about a rule that does not exist? Decisions like these serve to encourage that behavior since while I was clamly walking over to discuss the call, the defense left the field making the umpires feel they couldn't make it right. (Which I don't agree with anyway.)
#4 Umps will miss calls, but let's at least try to get it right and ask your partner if there is any doubt at all. My respect goes up when that happens, and down when they blow it, know they blew it, and refuse to try to make it right. Second time this year I have had 1 umpire blow a call and their partner tells me I was right, but sorry. Getting the call as right as possible is the most important thing IMO.
#5 I love umpires and really appreciate the time they put in and the skill they have at doing their jobs. Most of the time they get it right, and I can easily accept the close calls that could have gone either way. The rare situations like these aren't so acceptable.
Rant over.
Delay steal of home, runner sort of half slides and sticks on the plate and tumbles over on the catcher. Not a major impact, just falls on her more or less. She was safe. (at first call anyway) Opposite coach immediately starts yelling "SHE HAS TO SLIDE< SHE TOOK OUT MY CATCHER! SHE IS OUT< SHE HAS TO SLIDE! IT'S IN THE RULES!!!!" Coach catches himself and then stalks out to the plate umpire saying all the same things a bit more calmly. The plate umpire considers it and calls my runner out. Inning over, defense leaves the field. I walk over to the umps now standing together and ask why she was called out. "She has to slide" I remind him there is no such rule in the book, it was a clean play, the girl was safe and on top of that the catcher was obstructing the plate without the ball. The base ump says he agrees with me but they won't reverse the call. I say why not? Well they already left the field. What??? My team didn't leave the field, this is costing my team a run and there is no reason not to get it right. Sorry, we won't reverse the call. Of course we go on to lose by one run. Maybe it didn't cost us the game as there were other opportunities to win we failed to take advantage of, but it sure didn't help.
My points are these.
#1 I can't find a thing in the NSA rules requiring a slide. "The runner is out if the runner remains on her feet and there is deliberate contact with great force." It was not deliberate and it was hardly with great force. Yes it's a judgement call, but that wasn't the call he made IMO.
#2 Why not make the call right? There was no further play involved as no one else was on base.
#3 Why does the coach with the biggest mouth who yells the loudest get the call? Especially when he is yelling about a rule that does not exist? Decisions like these serve to encourage that behavior since while I was clamly walking over to discuss the call, the defense left the field making the umpires feel they couldn't make it right. (Which I don't agree with anyway.)
#4 Umps will miss calls, but let's at least try to get it right and ask your partner if there is any doubt at all. My respect goes up when that happens, and down when they blow it, know they blew it, and refuse to try to make it right. Second time this year I have had 1 umpire blow a call and their partner tells me I was right, but sorry. Getting the call as right as possible is the most important thing IMO.
#5 I love umpires and really appreciate the time they put in and the skill they have at doing their jobs. Most of the time they get it right, and I can easily accept the close calls that could have gone either way. The rare situations like these aren't so acceptable.
Rant over.
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but we saved the beer right??
we did didn't we??
someone please confirm we saved beer....please???
we did didn't we??
someone please confirm we saved beer....please???
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No beer was spilled. Pickledad realized his mistake and his man-card was returned with a warning that a bad call does not warrant spillage.
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Any umpire that claims there is any rule requiring that a runner MUST slide needs some more training.
(Note: Some local leagues will add this to their special "in-house" rules in a misguided attempt to govern safety. But none of the major sanctioning bodies have a "must slide" rule. Forcing a player to slide, when she may not be very good at it, or would be in a situation where she would be forced to execute a sudden, late slide presents an even bigger danger to the player. The standard rules governing baserunning interfernce or obstruction can deal with these plays quite well.)
If the game was being played under rules that allow a protest to be filed, I would file one in a heartbeat! This is a 100% incorrect rule interpretation and you should have no problem winning it.
Frankly, it sounds like the umpires from this game were not very experienced. First, they seem confused on the obstruction and interfernce rules. Then, they let a coach talk them into making a call- a completely wrong call at that. Lastly, the base umpire telling you he didn't agree with the call is bush.
What can possibly be gained by undermining your partners credibility with one of the coaches? Bad form for an umpire and an experienced umpire should know better. With that kind of game management, things can go down hill pretty fast!
One of the most basic guidelines for umpires is to never openly criticize another umpire's call. It's in the umpire section of the rule book, it's in the umpire manuals and it's covered in training classes.
(Note: Some local leagues will add this to their special "in-house" rules in a misguided attempt to govern safety. But none of the major sanctioning bodies have a "must slide" rule. Forcing a player to slide, when she may not be very good at it, or would be in a situation where she would be forced to execute a sudden, late slide presents an even bigger danger to the player. The standard rules governing baserunning interfernce or obstruction can deal with these plays quite well.)
If the game was being played under rules that allow a protest to be filed, I would file one in a heartbeat! This is a 100% incorrect rule interpretation and you should have no problem winning it.
Frankly, it sounds like the umpires from this game were not very experienced. First, they seem confused on the obstruction and interfernce rules. Then, they let a coach talk them into making a call- a completely wrong call at that. Lastly, the base umpire telling you he didn't agree with the call is bush.
What can possibly be gained by undermining your partners credibility with one of the coaches? Bad form for an umpire and an experienced umpire should know better. With that kind of game management, things can go down hill pretty fast!
One of the most basic guidelines for umpires is to never openly criticize another umpire's call. It's in the umpire section of the rule book, it's in the umpire manuals and it's covered in training classes.
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bretman, you are the umpire god! I so wish there were more out there like you. And for you to come on here and admit you made a mistake in front of all your adoring fans was really awesome.
We are so proud of you! lol
now, we all want your name and phone number so you can come umpire ALL our games!!!! ha ha ha
We are so proud of you! lol
now, we all want your name and phone number so you can come umpire ALL our games!!!! ha ha ha
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bretman
Does the runner have to avoid contact with the fielder when there is a play being made, like in the instance at home? (not talking about purposeful, malicious contact)
Just wondering for future reference......
Does the runner have to avoid contact with the fielder when there is a play being made, like in the instance at home? (not talking about purposeful, malicious contact)
Just wondering for future reference......
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In the interest of sharing...
I had a similar situation last week at Whitehall. Runner on third. Batter walked. Batter rounds first intending to take second as well. Pitcher has ball in circle and is not making any play. Runner at third then comes off the bag, hesitates and returns to the bag.
I calmly ask for time, discuss briefly with the base ump. He discusses with his partner. Calls the runner at third out and returns the runner at second to first. (Big kudos for the umpire team to be watching both sides of the field correctly.)
Just goes to show that there can be a lot of distance between what is happening on the field (first, third and the circle in this case) and the umpires have to work together to get the call right. If you remain calm and discuss it knowledgeably, most umpires will work to get it right.
I had a similar situation last week at Whitehall. Runner on third. Batter walked. Batter rounds first intending to take second as well. Pitcher has ball in circle and is not making any play. Runner at third then comes off the bag, hesitates and returns to the bag.
I calmly ask for time, discuss briefly with the base ump. He discusses with his partner. Calls the runner at third out and returns the runner at second to first. (Big kudos for the umpire team to be watching both sides of the field correctly.)
Just goes to show that there can be a lot of distance between what is happening on the field (first, third and the circle in this case) and the umpires have to work together to get the call right. If you remain calm and discuss it knowledgeably, most umpires will work to get it right.
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Softballmom,
When a play is being made at a base- any base, not just home- and the fielder already has the ball, the runner has two options. She may either slide, or remain on her feet but avoid contact with the fielder.
If she slides, she may legally contact the fielder withour penalty (as long as her slide is a legal one and she does not try to, for instance, kick or injure the fielder).
If she remains on her feet, she may slow down, stop, go to the side or otherwise attempt to avoid contact. If she does none of the above, and runs into the fielder she is out for interference.
If the umpire judges that she crashed into the fielder with diliberate force, in an attempt to dislodge the ball or injure the defender, she is out and ejected for malicious contact.
That is the scenario when the fielder has possession of the ball and is making a play. If the fielder does not have the ball, the runner may remain on her feet and continue directly to the base. If there is contact, the defense is now at fault and you may have an obstruction call and the base awarded to the runner.
Even when the fielder does not have the ball, the runner does not have the right to purposely crash into her with the intent to injure or disrupt the play. That would also be malicious contact and an ejection.
One more twist on this play: If the defender gains possession of the ball, then quickly moves into the path of the runner, such that it is impossible to avoid her, the runner may contact the fielder, as long as she does nothing else that might be deemed malicious (throws an elbow, violently pushes the defender, etc.).
On plays at any base, the runner has the responsibility to slide or avoid contacting a fielder holding the ball and the defender has the resposibility not to obstruct the runners path if not in possession of the ball. All players have the responsibility to not maliciously contact an opponent.
There's a lot of judgement involved for the umpire on these plays and he has just a few split-seconds to soak it all in and apply the proper ruling.
When a play is being made at a base- any base, not just home- and the fielder already has the ball, the runner has two options. She may either slide, or remain on her feet but avoid contact with the fielder.
If she slides, she may legally contact the fielder withour penalty (as long as her slide is a legal one and she does not try to, for instance, kick or injure the fielder).
If she remains on her feet, she may slow down, stop, go to the side or otherwise attempt to avoid contact. If she does none of the above, and runs into the fielder she is out for interference.
If the umpire judges that she crashed into the fielder with diliberate force, in an attempt to dislodge the ball or injure the defender, she is out and ejected for malicious contact.
That is the scenario when the fielder has possession of the ball and is making a play. If the fielder does not have the ball, the runner may remain on her feet and continue directly to the base. If there is contact, the defense is now at fault and you may have an obstruction call and the base awarded to the runner.
Even when the fielder does not have the ball, the runner does not have the right to purposely crash into her with the intent to injure or disrupt the play. That would also be malicious contact and an ejection.
One more twist on this play: If the defender gains possession of the ball, then quickly moves into the path of the runner, such that it is impossible to avoid her, the runner may contact the fielder, as long as she does nothing else that might be deemed malicious (throws an elbow, violently pushes the defender, etc.).
On plays at any base, the runner has the responsibility to slide or avoid contacting a fielder holding the ball and the defender has the resposibility not to obstruct the runners path if not in possession of the ball. All players have the responsibility to not maliciously contact an opponent.
There's a lot of judgement involved for the umpire on these plays and he has just a few split-seconds to soak it all in and apply the proper ruling.
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Coach Bill,
Congratulations on getting the right call made in your game. When the coach knows the proper rule, and presents his questions in the right manner, his chances of getting the right call made go way up.
But something ain't kosher about the way things went down...
What you describe is a perfect example of a Look Back Rule violation. If the umpires saw the runner leave third, why didn't they call the infraction immediately? This is an immediate dead ball call.
If they didn't see it, no amount of talking to a coach should convince them to make a call they didn't see.
I was talking to a couple of umpires that worked the Whitehall tourney (you might remember a big, hulking guy named Frank or a blonde girl named Lori) and they told me that after five or six straight games in the 90-degree weather, their brains were just about fried and they were operating on cruise control!
Working in those conditions, umpire fatigue can become a real factor and that can lead to some unusual calls.
Congratulations on getting the right call made in your game. When the coach knows the proper rule, and presents his questions in the right manner, his chances of getting the right call made go way up.
But something ain't kosher about the way things went down...
What you describe is a perfect example of a Look Back Rule violation. If the umpires saw the runner leave third, why didn't they call the infraction immediately? This is an immediate dead ball call.
If they didn't see it, no amount of talking to a coach should convince them to make a call they didn't see.
I was talking to a couple of umpires that worked the Whitehall tourney (you might remember a big, hulking guy named Frank or a blonde girl named Lori) and they told me that after five or six straight games in the 90-degree weather, their brains were just about fried and they were operating on cruise control!
Working in those conditions, umpire fatigue can become a real factor and that can lead to some unusual calls.
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and that's the reason for having 2 umps!
beware tourneys that have the uni-umpire system to save moolah....while we do this for our "girls", can we make sure the "guys" dont birth a cow by blown calls, which means blown oppurtunities for our "girls"
thanks bretman, maybe some of our coaches can step forward and be so honest with their own mistakes (I'm penning a memoir called, "I was wrong so sue me" coming out this fall on the OFC).... :-?
beware tourneys that have the uni-umpire system to save moolah....while we do this for our "girls", can we make sure the "guys" dont birth a cow by blown calls, which means blown oppurtunities for our "girls"
thanks bretman, maybe some of our coaches can step forward and be so honest with their own mistakes (I'm penning a memoir called, "I was wrong so sue me" coming out this fall on the OFC).... :-?
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