Pitching and Pitchers Discussion Spin ?

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I've had a polite disagreement with a guy on pitchers and spin. My view is if a pitcher is spinning it well , even if it is NOT getting a break on ball it makes her a much more effective pitcher. Harder to hit flush and drive the ball. Dont know the physics behind why that would be so but it seems to me pitchers who spin it well dont get hit near as hard as those who just throw it , even if it's thrown hard. I think his thinking is related to the hanging curve in baseball , which we both played much of. baseball -spin with no movement = getting crushed but spin in softball matters even if it doesnt actually cause a true slide/break on the ball .

This topic was kinda mentioned in the rainy NCAA final where they stated Traina throws it hard with not much spin ( why is it breaking then ?) but Ricketts throws it hard with tons of spin. ?

 

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No physics major here, but I think movement is tied to velocity vs spin rate. Lots of "four seam spin" combined with good speed will produce a "late break" as the ball slows near the hitting zone. The same spin rate thrown with less velocity would break sooner. Just as baseball, two seams produce less break than 4 seams - less "bite". If the ball isn't breaking, there's probably a lack of spin, or it's thrown with improper spin, like a rise with "bullet spin". Combinations of two seam, four seam, spin rate and velocity can produce lots of variations in early/late break, and amount of movement.

As for where the ball goes at bat contact, I think it's highly dependent on where the ball contacts the barrel, and not so much the ball spin direction. Visualizing the bat/ball collision, if the collision is off center axis on either bat or ball (or both) the ball will probably not have a favorable trajectory. For instance, a late breaking drop would fool the batter into perceiving the ball in a higher trajectory, and contact would probably be either below axis center on the barrel, or above axis center (top) of the ball - causing it to be hit downward. Thus, good drop ball pitchers tend to produce lots of grounders, while good rise ball pitchers produce pop ups - both caused by fooling the batter into changing her swing path.

I think the ball spin is effectively canceled at bat contact, and the "hit ball trajectory" is the result of the off-axis barrel/ball contact point.

Just my two cents...

 

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No physics major here, but I think movement is tied to velocity vs spin rate. Lots of "four seam spin" combined with good speed will produce a "late break" as the ball slows near the hitting zone. The same spin rate thrown with less velocity would break sooner. Just as baseball, two seams produce less break than 4 seams - less "bite". If the ball isn't breaking, there's probably a lack of spin, or it's thrown with improper spin, like a rise with "bullet spin". Combinations of two seam, four seam, spin rate and velocity can produce lots of variations in early/late break, and amount of movement.

As for where the ball goes at bat contact, I think it's highly dependent on where the ball contacts the barrel, and not so much the ball spin direction. Visualizing the bat/ball collision, if the collision is off center axis on either bat or ball (or both) the ball will probably not have a favorable trajectory. For instance, a late breaking drop would fool the batter into perceiving the ball in a higher trajectory, and contact would probably be either below axis center on the barrel, or above axis center (top) of the ball - causing it to be hit downward. Thus, good drop ball pitchers tend to produce lots of grounders, while good rise ball pitchers produce pop ups - both caused by fooling the batter into changing her swing path.

I think the ball spin is effectively canceled at bat contact, and the "hit ball trajectory" is the result of the off-axis barrel/ball contact point.

Just my two cents...

You write like a physics major...what the heck does most of this even mean? from the original post...I think that a spin that does nothing is no different than a ball that is thrown. This game isnt some scientific fact... I have seen girls that spin the ball that dont break get hammered actually more than those that just throw with velocity. But a ball that doesnt break is just a pitch.....will have nothing to do with how it comes off the bat.

 

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Spin creates friction. The more seams involved the more friction is created. The faster the ball spins the more friction is created. The ball is influenced to move in the direction the ball spins. How hard it tries to move is determined by the total amount of friction that is created.

As for the ball off the bat, this total amount of friction starts to influence immediately. If the sheer magnitude of the hit greatly over powers this friction you may not NOTICE the frictions (spin, seams) influence but it is there.

The ball spin is indeed cancelled by a solid hit and a new spin (spin rate, direction) is given. Sinking fly balls, slicing line drives, etc. are all created by the same forces that make pitches move. Add in some wind and everything is magnified.

A ball can go further, or less further, based on spin. Take a ball that leaves home plate that is a certain velocity and angle and put different spins (rate, direction) and you seem significant differences. Massive top spin (12-6 rotation) and it sinks as it is influenced in the same direction as gravity is also influencing. Put massive back spin (12-6 rotation) and the ball carries further as it is opposing gravity. A 3-9 or a 9-3 spin will call the ball to slice.

We also have the bernoulli effect, which governs how fluids and gassed move around objects. Where a spinning ball is concerned the friction from the spinning ball drags air with it and creates a low pressure on one side and a higher pressure on the other side. The ball will attempt to move to the lower pressure side.

 

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As to why a ball moves when thrown hard but not much spin, the air is still creating friction around the ball and especially the seams. Though the same forces are still in effect as in a quickly spinning ball now the air treats a seam as an obstacle. Stick your hand out the window when going 15mph and again when going 65mph. Pretend your hand is a seam on a ball. When thrown hard with a bit of a spin you get a similar situation. There is a certain "break even" point on a slower ball with tremendous spin versus a faster ball with less spin. The same pitch thrown hard with less spin would break MORE if she threw the same velocity with tremendous spin.

Next... knuckleballs.

 

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so how do all of you transfer all of this great info to your girls....several hours of every day with every kid? seems you talk like this to sound intelligent on here but anyone that coaches these kids know they wont understand .2% (just having fun) of what any of you are saying.

 

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Yeah I was kinda looking for a general "yes" or "no" LMAO ! MD

 

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I am NOT a coach - but I will say this. The truly GREAT coaches at the top levels of the game study this stuff in minute detail, and they know how to transfer their knowledge to their students. The first step is understanding every last detail themselves. The second step is the wisdom in recognizing and using different teaching methods for each student, because rarely do two kids learn in exactly the same way. I would call it "age appropriate teaching/learning".

Nothing I described before is rocket science, but maybe over a 12u kid's head. By 14u, I would think that EVERY pitcher's parent would understand the basics of how spins work to create movement. Certainly most would understand that just because a ball is spinning, it won't necessarily MOVE much, because it depends on the orientation of the seams in the rotation.

Yes - I too have seen kids who throw spin pitches "get hammered". And yes, it IS somewhat scientific - and the sooner someone explains to that young pitcher how to grip the ball so that the proper seams are biting - she will continue throwing FLAT non-moving pitches. Resorting to a FLAT fastball is not the answer either.

 

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so how do all of you transfer all of this great info to your girls....several hours of every day with every kid? seems you talk like this to sound intelligent on here but anyone that coaches these kids know they wont understand .2% (just having fun) of what any of you are saying.

I wouldn't talk to the kids like this, if this was directed at me.

 

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at MD..i was thinking you wanted it simple.
at WM you are still confusing me...

 

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at MD..i was thinking you wanted it simple.
at WM you are still confusing me...

Sorry, what is confusing? The whole thing? If so I'll try to reword if there is still a question.

 

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When my son pitched I would explain that the ball would do it's best to grab hold of the air and go in the direction of the spin. More spin = more grab. On a back spin it would try to go up but also gravity was pulling down so it would appear to stay "flat" or in a straight line. On a low spin ball (knuckleball) the imperfections in the ball (seams, cut on the ball) would be obstacles or even like glider wings and cause the ball to go in any number of directions.

 

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I completely agree with you MD. We have had pitchers who throw hard as heck with little spin and pitchers who have a ton of spin on the ball and hands down, the pitchers with spin are much more effective. Even when they are not throwing movement pitches, the ball still has alot of spin to it and most batters end up struggling to get solid contact and ground out. To me, it's the difference between pitching and throwing.....I'll take a pitcher anyday!! It only takes one at bat to time and adjust to a thrower, they only have 1 weapon...their speed. A good pitcher has more than 1 trick up her sleeve to keep the batters on their toes and make even the best hitters leary.

 

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Perfect example is the pitcher for the University of Louisville-Chelsea Leonard...throws only in the mid-fifties with a change-up that is in the low 40's but puts so much spin and moves the **** out of the ball.

 

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Pitchers with more spin are getting a lot of foul balls, grounders and pop ups. Doesn't mean the ball can't be tattooed for a solid hit, but if the hitters mechanics aren't solid and they don't make good contact the results will favor the pitcher.

JMHO