Catching and Catchers discussion Catcher calling pitches.

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Fascinating discussion ... we chart each at bat, what is called, what worked, and I have a player sitting next to us charting. She also writes down comments, like - "batter froze on change-up", "chased high FB" ... at the end of the inning we meet quickly with the catcher/pitcher and ask what pitch(es) are working and what pitch(es) the pitcher feels most confident with.

Going into the 2nd/3rd time thru the line-up we look back at the notes and pitch the batter accordingly, again making notes.

No way I could expect our catcher to be able to recall/plan for each batter throughout the game like that...

Just last weekend at sinclair our 18u catcher was calling her game and doing ok .. we were not getting the low, outside strike call. I noted that the ump was sitting up over her left shoulder, we moved to working inside early in the count, then going away with 2 strikes. The result was that the batter chased the low away pitch when she was in the hole with 2 strikes... good learning for the catcher. Cool part was I explained what we were going to do to the catcher in ear shot of the Wright State coach, afterwards we talked and she said that was a good piece of advice and observation to pass on to the catcher.

I pick my spots to let the catcher call her game - but in critical games we leave it to the coaches...

 

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I think more then anything it is that they can manage the game better, and have all the stats.

Just because you call pitches does not make you a student of the game. I have seen pitch calling win and lose games.

For many coaches, it's because they think they can manage the pitch calling better, not because they can. I will also guarantee you that more games have been lost due to a pitch down Main Street than there has been due to a well placed called pitch.

Len

 

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For many coaches, it's because they think they can manage the pitch calling better, not because they can. I will also guarantee you that more games have been lost due to a pitch down Main Street than there has been due to a well placed called pitch.

Len

Agree pitchers have to hit there spots

 

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A travel softball coach plays a much different role to kids than a college coach. A travel coach is similar to a strength coach. A strength coach teaches their "student" HOW to lift, etc. Lifting the weights FOR them won't help the student achieve her goals.

All the things Mark T. said are very true. How many travel teams require their bench pitchers to chart each and every opposing pitch? How many travel teams have video libraries of opposing team's player's at-bats? Even if they do, what's the point? IMO, if they are using video and charting for anyone other than their own players, they are missing the point.

To reinforce one of Lenski's points, at 14u and below, how many pitches hit exactly the intended spot? Compared to a college pitcher's accuracy? I think it's a very misguided notion by coaches to think they are controlling the game outcome by calling pitches. I think this is more an example of adults over-controlling a children's game. Teach the KIDS how to play... then let them play!!

On the mental aspects: Both pitcher and catcher MUST develop a thick skin and be mentally tough. If they can't develop that toughness at a fairly young age, and fear of failure is always guiding their decisions - maybe they are both in the wrong positions, or even the wrong game.

 

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AAll the things Mark T. said are very true. How many travel teams require their bench pitchers to chart each and every opposing pitch? How many travel teams have video libraries of opposing team's player's at-bats? Even if they do, what's the point? IMO, if they are using video and charting for anyone other than their own players, they are missing the point.

keeping track of what pitches worked against opposing team's player's at bat-YES (does she chase the high stuff, can she hit a drop ball etc.)

keeping track of opposing team's pitches against your batter- NO (unless it's something like struck out on a change-up...you would work with your batter to recognize and wait)

Just my opinion...

 

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My point is that a coach micromanaging his team solely for the purpose of winning is not seeing the forest for the trees. The team may win that particular game, but what have the battery learned in the process?

Doug Lenos is using a teaching/learning process which the catcher will put to use in future games. Question for Doug: Are you using this same process at lower age groups throughout the Hawks organization? Kudos if you are - I think that whole process is what develops catchers into college capable players. By 18u, I think catchers should have a decent handle on how to set up batters and read how her pitcher is performing.

I don't think enough credit is given to a battery remembering a previous batter's tendencies from a previous at-bat - in that game. Certainly they can't remember EVERY batter from EVERY previous game, but you'd be surprised. During any given season at 16u and up, my DD knew every GOOD hitter's tendencies, and what pitches worked - or the ones that didn't work. She knew all the power hitters she faced, the slappers, bunters, etc. She would shake off a called pitch if memory told her it was a bad choice. Yes, they DO remember.

Believe me... I HATE losing. But I value the learning process much more than losing a few travel games from pitch calling "mistakes". A catcher who has the opportunity to learn from her mistakes will be much more valuable to her team.

 

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My point is that a coach micromanaging his team solely for the purpose of winning is not seeing the forest for the trees. The team may win that particular game, but what have the battery learned in the process?

Doug Lenos is using a teaching/learning process which the catcher will put to use in future games. Question for Doug: Are you using this same process at lower age groups throughout the Hawks organization? Kudos if you are - I think that whole process is what develops catchers into college capable players. By 18u, I think catchers should have a decent handle on how to set up batters and read how her pitcher is performing.

I don't think enough credit is given to a battery remembering a previous batter's tendencies from a previous at-bat - in that game. Certainly they can't remember EVERY batter from EVERY previous game, but you'd be surprised. During any given season at 16u and up, my DD knew every GOOD hitter's tendencies, and what pitches worked - or the ones that didn't work. She knew all the power hitters she faced, the slappers, bunters, etc. She would shake off a called pitch if memory told her it was a bad choice. Yes, they DO remember.

Believe me... I HATE losing. But I value the learning process much more than losing a few travel games from pitch calling "mistakes". A catcher who has the opportunity to learn from her mistakes will be much more valuable to her team.

Well said and I agree. The teaching/learning process is what it's about.

 

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I honestly don't think a catcher at 10u or 12u needs to be calling pitches. They should still be focusing on their skill development and learning the position without the burden of trying to mentally think thru the other teams lineup.

That being said, we started the transition at 12u and last year at 13u let them call certain games. We always communicated with the pitcher and catcher between innings as needed. We did not worry about charting each pitch in great detail - we just make notes during the AB that will help us later on.. for instance if a girl drops her hands, we make a note to pitch her high in the zone. If she crowds the plate or leans/steps into the ball - we work her inside. If we throw tight inside and she 'panics' and sets up 4 inches further from the plate, we note it and when we need a K we will come inside tight, then away for the K. If she lays off our rise ball, we note it and don't throw it to her in the next AB .. we build a profile of her as a hitter.. I save the notes and use them in later games if needed.
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I will say this .. probably 80% of all 'tatered' balls are a result of the pitcher throwing it over the plate.. very rarely does a pitcher get ripped when she makes her pitch. At Sinclair we had a girl all set up for a strikeout with a inside, chest high riseball, called it, pitch was right down heart of the plate - batter swung and missed... everyone jumped up, "great pitch" ... etc, etc.. I turned to boulders dad and said, yea, great pitch to be put over the fence, we got lucky... sometimes it happens.

 

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One more thought.. I want my catchers to learn (by communication) as they have succcess .. .we called all pitches at 10u, called them but commuicated with them at 12u, and started to release the reins late last year (until Nationals), and will do so more this year - each catcher is learning at a different speed. Asking them to call a game whe they are still developing and learning only hurts the team. It is like touching a hot stove - I don't want my kids to learn from touching a bunch of burners to know which ones burn their fingers.. I would rather lead them down the path, letting them trust me more up front and me trusting them more later as they earn it... I guess I am saying the you dont have to make mistakes in order to learn .. and making them does not exactly mean they are learning quicker. Sometimes it sets them back ... I hope to manage them thru the process - helping them learn, letting the make mistakes when it does not hurt the team and encouraging them when they make the right decisions...

 

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My point is that a coach micromanaging his team solely for the purpose of winning is not seeing the forest for the trees. The team may win that particular game, but what have the battery learned in the process?

Doug Lenos is using a teaching/learning process which the catcher will put to use in future games. Question for Doug: Are you using this same process at lower age groups throughout the Hawks organization? Kudos if you are - I think that whole process is what develops catchers into college capable players. By 18u, I think catchers should have a decent handle on how to set up batters and read how her pitcher is performing.

I don't think enough credit is given to a battery remembering a previous batter's tendencies from a previous at-bat - in that game. Certainly they can't remember EVERY batter from EVERY previous game, but you'd be surprised. During any given season at 16u and up, my DD knew every GOOD hitter's tendencies, and what pitches worked - or the ones that didn't work. She knew all the power hitters she faced, the slappers, bunters, etc. She would shake off a called pitch if memory told her it was a bad choice. Yes, they DO remember.

Believe me... I HATE losing. But I value the learning process much more than losing a few travel games from pitch calling "mistakes". A catcher who has the opportunity to learn from her mistakes will be much more valuable to her team.

Why so much value on the battery learning at the expense of a win?

Just to play devil's advocate wouldn't that mean one players development at the expense of the team? If the coach knows how to call a good game why let the catcher so they can learn on the job. Why not just have the coach call them?

I don't think it's that big a deal and it surprises me all the discussion the adults give it. This comes up a couple times a year. Travel players have a goal of playing in college. It's said that college coaches call the pitches. So it's not that important that a travel catcher call all the pitches. What's she preparing for? She should know how and can learn with-out calling them if they want. Shouldn't be forced to learn under fire.

More important would be some attention to the position at team practices. Don't see that much. And I'm not talking calling, I'm talking mechanics and situations.

 

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pretty much my point... I have never had a college coach ask me or a catcher about her pitch calling... they watch glove and footwork, arm strenght and accuracy...

 

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Why so much value on the battery learning at the expense of a win?

Just to play devil's advocate wouldn't that mean one players development at the expense of the team? If the coach knows how to call a good game why let the catcher so they can learn on the job. Why not just have the coach call them?

I don't think it's that big a deal and it surprises me all the discussion the adults give it. This comes up a couple times a year. Travel players have a goal of playing in college. It's said that college coaches call the pitches. So it's not that important that a travel catcher call all the pitches. What's she preparing for? She should know how and can learn with-out calling them if they want. Shouldn't be forced to learn under fire.

More important would be some attention to the position at team practices. Don't see that much. And I'm not talking calling, I'm talking mechanics and situations.

Great Points

 

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So I guess in travel ball the assumption is that travel teams do not collect data on players, teams and situations. Maybe I am alone but I chart hitters and collect a lot of data so the next time we face them we know what is successful and what is not, giving our pitchers a greater chance of success. I guess we could always give a wristband to the catchers like the nfl quarterbacks use before each game with hitters tendencies so they know what to call. j/k of course....

Your joking right? You collect data on hitters from playing them 4-5 times per season and maybe you have tape on your own games to review. College coaches in some cases have access to tape on EVERY game the opposing team has played AND independent stats on the entire team. So you don't bother charting kids who hit .150 and you can see 80-100 at bats on their 3 -4 studs and figure out what works and what gets put out of the park.

Charting hitters in travel ball can be short term effective for when your playing your local opponents, but even then the only players you could chart enough data on to be statistically relevant are your own. When you really care about winning (i.e. post season nationals etc...) chances are every opponent is someone you have never faced before, or seen so infrequently that your "chart" isn't statistically significant.

 

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So I guess in travel ball the assumption is that travel teams do not collect data on players, teams and situations. Maybe I am alone but I chart hitters and collect a lot of data so the next time we face them we know what is successful and what is not, giving our pitchers a greater chance of success. ....

Snocatzdad-

A lot of teams chart hitters...so that next time you face that team (possibly in that tournament or later down the road) you pull out the scorebook and take a look at the stats.

 

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Why so much value on the battery learning at the expense of a win?

Who touches the ball the most during ANY game?

Just to play devil's advocate wouldn't that mean one players development at the expense of the team? If the coach knows how to call a good game why let the catcher so they can learn on the job. Why not just have the coach call them?

Each and every kid learns on the job. The coaches do not tell the other players what to do on each pitch. Why should the pitcher and catcher be different? It's not at the expense of the team...it's for the betterment of the team.

I don't think it's that big a deal and it surprises me all the discussion the adults give it. This comes up a couple times a year. Travel players have a goal of playing in college. It's said that college coaches call the pitches. So it's not that important that a travel catcher call all the pitches. What's she preparing for? She should know how and can learn with-out calling them if they want. Shouldn't be forced to learn under fire.

If a travel player's goal is to play in college, that player should learn everything they possibly can....in any position. Calling games just happens to fall into the pitcher's and catcher's laps. If there are two catchers a college is thinking of offering a scholarship to and they are equal both defensively and offensively and every other way, except one catcher called her own game and the other catcher did not, I'll bet you an ice cream they will take the catcher that called her own game.

More important would be some attention to the position at team practices. Don't see that much. And I'm not talking calling, I'm talking mechanics and situations.

Can't argue this, but my guess is because many coaches do not know proper catching mechanics and technique.

Your dd is a catcher and trust me when I tell you that she will be a much more rounded catcher if she's allowed to call her own game (maybe she already calls her own game...i don't know). It really forces them to think, remember, and stay totally focused in the game.

If a coach wants to call their own game, I don't have a problem with that either. It's not that I loathe a coach calling a game, I just think pitchers and catchers know more than the coaches think they do. I will also say that if a coach (playing at a high level) would not feel confident in their catcher calling a game, maybe they need to find a catcher with a little more on the ball.......JMHO

Len

 

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Who touches the ball the most during ANY game? Sorry, Lost me. So loss is okay? Doesn't answer question? The catcher should call the game because she touches the ball more even though coach gives them a better shot at winning?



Each and every kid learns on the job. The coaches do not tell the other players what to do on each pitch. Why should the pitcher and catcher be different? It's not at the expense of the team...it's for the betterment of the team. How is it for the betterment? Coaches do tell other players what to do on each pitch, depending on players on base. And they do tell them what to do if ball is put into play which is when the other players become involved. Otherwise they are not involved. Apples and oranges here. lol



If a travel player's goal is to play in college, that player should learn everything they possibly can....in any position. Calling games just happens to fall into the pitcher's and catcher's laps. If there are two catchers a college is thinking of offering a scholarship to and they are equal both defensively and offensively and every other way, except one catcher called her own game and the other catcher did not, I'll bet you an ice cream they will take the catcher that called her own game. Disagree and even if so you are talking a very small chance of that happening. 99.9999999% of the time calling games does not enter process.



Can't argue this, but my guess is because many coaches do not know proper catching mechanics and technique.

Your dd is a catcher and trust me when I tell you that she will be a much more rounded catcher if she's allowed to call her own game (maybe she already calls her own game...i don't know). It really forces them to think, remember, and stay totally focused in the game.

If a coach wants to call their own game, I don't have a problem with that either. It's not that I loathe a coach calling a game, I just think pitchers and catchers know more than the coaches think they do. I will also say that if a coach (playing at a high level) would not feel confident in their catcher calling a game, maybe they need to find a catcher with a little more on the ball.......JMHO


Len

DD has called many a game. She likes calling games when she knows the pitcher and her pitches. Doesn't bother her if coach calls the game unless they lose. hehe. Not arguing that a pitcher is more rounded if she knows how to call a game, more knowledge on anything is always better. I just don't think it has the importance that you guys do.

 

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Pretty much agree with Lenski's responses here. The unspoken word is that college coaches want kids who can think for themselves and have developed excellent game smarts. Maybe learning to call pitches is a small part of that - who knows?

I give a big thumbs up to what you are doing, Doug. I agree with your approach to what I would call "age appropriate responsibilities". Yes, 10u is too young to be calling pitches, as there are many other more important priorities at that stage. BUT - for the kid who is ready to learn, start them learning at ANY age. The coach must decide on the maturity level, and has the final say. Provided a kid is ready, it's never too early for them to learn. They can learn the principles behind pitch calling without actually calling pitches.

I apologize for not countering some of the other arguments, but I just can't pee up a telephone pole as far as I used to be able to...

 

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I honestly don't think a catcher at 10u or 12u needs to be calling pitches. They should still be focusing on their skill development and learning the position without the burden of trying to mentally think thru the other teams lineup.

That being said, we started the transition at 12u and last year at 13u let them call certain games. We always communicated with the pitcher and catcher between innings as needed. We did not worry about charting each pitch in great detail - we just make notes during the AB that will help us later on.. for instance if a girl drops her hands, we make a note to pitch her high in the zone. If she crowds the plate or leans/steps into the ball - we work her inside. If we throw tight inside and she 'panics' and sets up 4 inches further from the plate, we note it and when we need a K we will come inside tight, then away for the K. If she lays off our rise ball, we note it and don't throw it to her in the next AB .. we build a profile of her as a hitter.. I save the notes and use them in later games if needed.
80
I will say this .. probably 80% of all 'tatered' balls are a result of the pitcher throwing it over the plate.. very rarely does a pitcher get ripped when she makes her pitch. At Sinclair we had a girl all set up for a strikeout with a inside, chest high riseball, called it, pitch was right down heart of the plate - batter swung and missed... everyone jumped up, "great pitch" ... etc, etc.. I turned to boulders dad and said, yea, great pitch to be put over the fence, we got lucky... sometimes it happens.

I have to agree with Doug here.

We involve our catchers in the process and they signal us when they detect certain habits in hitters. I like to have our catcher call the game when opposing coaches are stealing signs though. I still pretend to send in the sign but I have no idea what pitch is coming.

 

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If there are two catchers a college is thinking of offering a scholarship to and they are equal both defensively and offensively and every other way, except one catcher called her own game and the other catcher did not, I'll bet you an ice cream they will take the catcher that called her own game.

I am going to have to call bull chit on this one. Not everything is going to be equal. A coach evaluating two comparable players and is trying to decided who they are going to offer a scholarship to is not going to come down to who can call a game or not. If they are both that good then it is going to come down to other thing. What are her grades? What is her attitude? Is she coachable or not? Is she a team player or a prima donna? What is the potential etc.

Now I do agree, I think it is good that a catcher learn to call a game. I think it helps make them a better player and gives them a better understanding of the game.

 

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What are her grades? What is her attitude?

And we have a winner....