Catching and Catchers discussion Catcher calling pitches.

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I am going to have to call bull chit on this one. Not everything is going to be equal. A coach evaluating two comparable players and is trying to decided who they are going to offer a scholarship to is not going to come down to who can call a game or not. If they are both that good then it is going to come down to other thing. What are her grades? What is her attitude? Is she coachable or not? Is she a team player or a prima donna? What is the potential etc.

Now I do agree, I think it is good that a catcher learn to call a game. I think it helps make them a better player and gives them a better understanding of the game.

The grades, attitude, and coachability were covered in the "every other way" portion of my statement. True, chances are that everything is not going to be equal. I was just trying to stress the importance of knowing how to call a game.

Len

 

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The grades, attitude, and coachability were covered in the "every other way" portion of my statement. True, chances are that everything is not going to be equal. I was just trying to stress the importance of knowing how to call a game.

Len

Len, I agree with you and I think it is important a cather should learn how to call a game.

I think in trying to stress your point you took it to far. Because in your scenario you?re talking about 2 extremely talented girls and if a coach is trying decided who they are going to give a scholarship to. Then they are going to base their final decision on something more than this girl can call a game and that one can?t.

 

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It all depends on the strengths and the abilities of the catcher and coach to do this. Sorry, but I honestly don't think most youth fastpitch catchers are ready to do this. Could they get better at it with some training by the coach and trusting of them to call games, I am sure. But I think in the majority of the cases that a good travel coach who has charted the opposition, and who is observant about batter's weaknesses and tendencies is usually going to be better than the catcher. Know this isn't popular opinion, but it's the way I feel ... and no, I don't call them myself. My DD who is a senior pitcher in college does that for us.

 

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It all depends on the strengths and the abilities of the catcher and coach to do this. Sorry, but I honestly don't think most youth fastpitch catchers are ready to do this. Could they get better at it with some training by the coach and trusting of them to call games, I am sure. But I think in the majority of the cases that a good travel coach who has charted the opposition, and who is observant about batter's weaknesses and tendencies is usually going to be better than the catcher. Know this isn't popular opinion, but it's the way I feel ... and no, I don't call them myself. My DD who is a senior pitcher in college does that for us.

JWB I agree

 

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By the way, my DD can do this well now because of all the years of experience she has in observing batters and learning the game. She would not have been ready to really do this in junior high or high school, but she became a student of the game because of her maturity and desire to learn the game. Not saying that no catchers at a younger age could do this, but saying if I have someone better on the coaching staff to do it, I am going to go with that option in any important game.

 

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It all depends on the strengths and the abilities of the catcher and coach to do this. Sorry, but I honestly don't think most youth fastpitch catchers are ready to do this. Could they get better at it with some training by the coach and trusting of them to call games, I am sure. But I think in the majority of the cases that a good travel coach who has charted the opposition, and who is observant about batter's weaknesses and tendencies is usually going to be better than the catcher. Know this isn't popular opinion, but it's the way I feel ... and no, I don't call them myself. My DD who is a senior pitcher in college does that for us.

I agree. Makes a whole lot of sense. To have a kid call the game when sure the coach could do a better job and not mind taking a loss doing it flabbergasts me. Wouldn't want to be with that coach. And for what? And at the expense of the other kids who busted their butts to win games.

I will need proof that college coaches want to see that a catcher calls her games in order to be considered. I think some make that crapola up to boast their weak argument. Why would they if they wont be having her call games. I think they will be able to get a feeling whether she has a handle on the game with-out her calling pitches. JMHO

 

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I agree. Makes a whole lot of sense. To have a kid call the game when sure the coach could do a better job and not mind taking a loss doing it flabbergasts me. Wouldn't want to be with that coach. And for what? And at the expense of the other kids who busted their butts to win games.

I will need proof that college coaches want to see that a catcher calls her games in order to be considered. I think some make that crapola up to boast their weak argument. Why would they if they wont be having her call games. I think they will be able to get a feeling whether she has a handle on the game with-out her calling pitches. JMHO

I would gues they could care less

 

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I mean I guess it could be considered a positive to a college coach that the prospective player is a student of the game, but just because they have been given this responsibility doesn't make them a student. And if they're playing on a travel team that doesn't win a lot, there's a good chance the college coach will never see them anyhow. Of course, catcher's parents almost always have something to say about this subject which comes up a couple of times a year!

 

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Just because a catcher calls her own game doesn't make her more a student of the game, and girl that doesn't any less.



Kind of funny, It appears that most of the people for a catcher calling her game our parents and most of the people against it are coaches. Is my observation correct.

 

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Warren ... I think the numbers are probably slanted that way, but there are no doubt many coaches who believe in having the catchers doing it, and I respect them for that, especially if they acknowledge that the catcher is better at it. And there are other coaches who do it themselves who have no business doing it ... the ego thing. But I believe that most strong travel teams probably have someone on the coaching staff who is best equipped to do this, and who gives the team (including the pitcher and catcher) the best chance to be successful.

 

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Len is correct in my mind as to the reason many battles at the plate are won/lost. Even a well disciplined pitcher can have one float on her or get off track and we all turn to see how far that one is going. That misplaced pitch that's off target, thrown by a human being, is normally the reason a pitcher loses the battle.

Once in a while, we watch a hitter swing thru one that's belt high over the middle of the plate and everyone expresses a sigh of relief. lol.

 

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Part of the reason that this game is so great is that while there is a lot of strategy involved and it can make a difference, its also a game of both execution and of inches. And inches implies some luck ... a ball just hit a bit more to the right or left, a pitch just over or just off the plate, a long drive or just a pop up. I believe that we as coaches need to do all of the little things to give our team a chance to succeed (like having the most capable person calling the pitches), but at the end of the day the outcome is often decided on things outside of our control.

 

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For the catcher to be able to call the game (which I am in favor of), she also has to have a full understanding of the whole game, not just the pitching side.

What are her team's defensive weaknesses and what pitches to this batter will help her team avoid that weakness?

How is the batter setting up in the box?

What pitches are working for this pitcher right now.

What is the dugout telling me about this hitter's weaknesses?

Just a few of the decisions that my DD faced when she called the game. She had a blast with it. She called it her "Game within the game."

From a coach's (and Dad's) position, it was very fulfilling to see a kid learn the whole game and how to manipulate the different pieces in order to try to achieve a positive outcome for the team.

For a kid to get to this level, it takes years of coaching, practice, and doing. You can't throw all of this on a 10U or 12U. Just like anything else in life, you build-up to your goal.

Now, it helps to have the same coaching philosophy from year to year. Continual changes in coaching philosophy will only disrupt the learning process.

 

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Why not have the pitcher call game ?

 

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We won a 14u championship game last month against a very good older team with a 13 year old pitcher and a 12 year old catcher who called every pitch of the game. While the pitcher got most of the props...I knew the catcher deserved just as much of a pat on the back for calling such a great game. Give them the knowledge and the opportunity to fully learn their positions or you aren't doing them any favors.

 

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Why not have the pitcher call game ?

Jordan Taylor of Michigan does.

 

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Klump ... that's great ... there is no just one way to do things, and any way can work. And catchers do deserve congrats for a well-called game.

Let me ask a couple of questions to anyone who feels catchers should always call pitches. How do you feel about coaches positioning fielders based on the batters and the situation? Should they keep their mouths shut, and just let the fielders position themselves based on the theory of letting them fully learn their positions? What about coaches calling for a bunt vs. just letting the hitters do it on their own based on the situation? Not trying to start anything ... just trying to generate some good discussion, and understand if people see this any different than the catchers calling pitches ...

 

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Snocatzdad-

A lot of teams chart hitters...so that next time you face that team (possibly in that tournament or later down the road) you pull out the scorebook and take a look at the stats.

Lots of coaches do it here too, and I do it myself, it's basic bookkeeping 101. It doesn't hurt to keep the data and even within a single game you can learn who you may want to pitch around and who to go after and what pitch struck her out last time. But the reality is that it's a delusion that we're all under that 3-5 data points on a hitter who will take 400-600 at bats a year is statistically relevant. So you see a kid pull the ball to left field twice in a game. Next time you face her you know that and you shade your outfield. IF the girl hits it there again your a genius right? If she doesn't you write it off as playing the odds. But just like a gambler you only remember the times you win the bet, you marginalize the times you lose the bet and delude yourself that your winning more than your losing.

 

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...To have a kid call the game when sure the coach could do a better job and not mind taking a loss doing it flabbergasts me. Wouldn't want to be with that coach. And for what? And at the expense of the other kids who busted their butts to win games.

LOL!! And the catcher and pitcher haven't "busted their butts" working on their game skills OUTSIDE of games? Seems that a second baseman or the left fielder with "holes in their gloves" can, and do, contribute to a team's losses. It takes 9 quality athletes ALL playing at their best to consistently win games. That's called a team. Singling out a catcher for losing a game is absurd!

I will need proof that college coaches want to see that a catcher calls her games in order to be considered. I think some make that crapola up to boast their weak argument. Why would they if they wont be having her call games. I think they will be able to get a feeling whether she has a handle on the game with-out her calling pitches. JMHO

I'm sure when you get into the recruiting phase you'll find your share of coaches with vastly differing opinions about what they want in an athlete. You'll also get a better understanding of the value of a knowledgeable catcher. Viewpoints also depend on the focus of your travel team - is the coach simply a trophy hunter, or is the coach committed 100% to complete player development?

Why not have the pitcher call game ?

Now that you mention it, they actually do... to a point. I'd say they are an active participant when they are given the liberty to shake off pitches.

For the catcher to be able to call the game (which I am in favor of), she also has to have a full understanding of the whole game, not just the pitching side.

What are her team's defensive weaknesses and what pitches to this batter will help her team avoid that weakness?

How is the batter setting up in the box?

What pitches are working for this pitcher right now.

What is the dugout telling me about this hitter's weaknesses?

Just a few of the decisions that my DD faced when she called the game. She had a blast with it. She called it her "Game within the game."

From a coach's (and Dad's) position, it was very fulfilling to see a kid learn the whole game and how to manipulate the different pieces in order to try to achieve a positive outcome for the team.

For a kid to get to this level, it takes years of coaching, practice, and doing. You can't throw all of this on a 10U or 12U. Just like anything else in life, you build-up to your goal.

Now, it helps to have the same coaching philosophy from year to year. Continual changes in coaching philosophy will only disrupt the learning process.

Thumbs up Bill.

We won a 14u championship game last month against a very good older team with a 13 year old pitcher and a 12 year old catcher who called every pitch of the game. While the pitcher got most of the props...I knew the catcher deserved just as much of a pat on the back for calling such a great game. Give them the knowledge and the opportunity to fully learn their positions or you aren't doing them any favors.

Excellent Klump - I agree 100%! We want our daughters to one day be able to give back to the sport they love. Isn't that the big picture behind all this - one that quite a few are missing? By fully educating them about as many aspects of high level game play as possible, you give them the tools and a better opportunity to do just that!

 

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LOL!! And the catcher and pitcher haven't "busted their butts" working on their game skills OUTSIDE of games? Seems that a second baseman or the left fielder with "holes in their gloves" can, and do, contribute to a team's losses. It takes 9 quality athletes ALL playing at their best to consistently win games. That's called a team. Singling out a catcher for losing a game is absurd! This is what YOU said about the catcher calling pitches: "But I value the learning process much more than losing a few travel games from pitch calling "mistakes". YOU said that a catcher should call every pitch PERIOD, a coach should NOT try to win at all costs by calling pitches, catcher development was more important than the win. I SAID that wouldn't be fair to the other players, coach should go for win and not train catcher on the job. You twisted things. lol



I'm sure when you get into the recruiting phase you'll find your share of coaches with vastly differing opinions about what they want in an athlete. You'll also get a better understanding of the value of a knowledgeable catcher. Viewpoints also depend on the focus of your travel team - is the coach simply a trophy hunter, or is the coach committed 100% to complete player development? So it's one or the other? So wanting to win games is trophy hunting now? How about some proof that college coaches want catchers calling games which makes you say catchers should call games period. I will take your word if you say you heard that from many coaches but have you heard that?



Now that you mention it, they actually do... to a point. I'd say they are an active participant when they are given the liberty to shake off pitches.



Thumbs up Bill.



Excellent Klump - I agree 100%! We want our daughters to one day be able to give back to the sport they love. Isn't that the big picture behind all this - one that quite a few are missing? By fully educating them about as many aspects of high level game play as possible, you give them the tools and a better opportunity to do just that!

A lot have said it is so darn important for a catcher to call every pitch, period but no one has made the case for it being so darn important. All I hear is it's good that they know. Yea it's nice if the catcher can call a good game. My daughter has called every pitch in school ball but not even 50% in travel. Some coaches call them all and some split it. No big deal. I guess we disagree on it's importance.