Catching and Catchers discussion Catcher calling pitches.

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Klump ... that's great ... there is no just one way to do things, and any way can work. And catchers do deserve congrats for a well-called game.

Let me ask a couple of questions to anyone who feels catchers should always call pitches. How do you feel about coaches positioning fielders based on the batters and the situation? Should they keep their mouths shut, and just let the fielders position themselves based on the theory of letting them fully learn their positions? What about coaches calling for a bunt vs. just letting the hitters do it on their own based on the situation? Not trying to start anything ... just trying to generate some good discussion, and understand if people see this any different than the catchers calling pitches ...

I would have to say that my ultimate goal as a coach is to teach the girls to think on their own and play on their own. I look forward to the day when they can take over the game and I can make the line up, give guidance on the bases, and sit on the bucket and enjoy the game.

So I guess my answer is yes, I would still feel the same. The more we coaches relinquish control and put the game back in the girls hands, the better players we will produce.

 

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I agree. Makes a whole lot of sense. To have a kid call the game when sure the coach could do a better job and not mind taking a loss doing it flabbergasts me. Wouldn't want to be with that coach. And for what? And at the expense of the other kids who busted their butts to win games.

I will need proof that college coaches want to see that a catcher calls her games in order to be considered. I think some make that crapola up to boast their weak argument. Why would they if they wont be having her call games. I think they will be able to get a feeling whether she has a handle on the game with-out her calling pitches. JMHO

I wish college coaches would chime in here. Also, if catching wasn't your thing when you played chances are you don't see the importance of this particular skill. Say whatever you want but the catcher has the best view of the batter than anyone.....period. They are up close and personal. Charting pitches isn't exactly fool-proof either because the people charting the pitches and location could be off, especially on the location, unless the catcher herself is forwarding location after each pitch. A charter makes a best guess based on what the catcher's reaction is but it is still a guess at best.

Len

 

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I would have to say that my ultimate goal as a coach is to teach the girls to think on their own and play on their own. I look forward to the day when they can take over the game and I can make the line up, give guidance on the bases, and sit on the bucket and enjoy the game.

So I guess my answer is yes, I would still feel the same. The more we coaches relinquish control and put the game back in the girls hands, the better players we will produce.

That's an excellent post and my philosophy as well. I tell our parents if your always telling your kids what to do on the field from the stands or I'm always telling them what to do from the bucket or box all they are going to learn is I'm going to tell them what to do.

I had a catcher a few years back (I still coach her in rec) Who everytime there was a runner on 3rd and 1st in a tight game (10u) I would tell her not to throw it to 2nd on the steal. I could tell everytime she wanted to. So one game I decided to let her go, she throws a rope to 2nd the girl stealing stopped and the run scored. She looks at me with this shocked look, we discussed it after the game. Now I just have to give her a sign on when to make THAT throw. It cost me a run to teach her something. I find that cheap.

 

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Klump and Uber ... I very much respect your opinion and what you're trying to accomplish in teaching girls the game, and I am 100% for teaching them. I just feel that at the end of the day, no different than in the work office or in a professional or college sport, it is the coach's role to take responsibility for the overall strategy and for ensuring the goals of the team are met.

There are different ways to teach people that vary on the extremes from throwing someone out there to do things on their own (i.e., sink or swim) to leading by example and students/workers/athletes learning from observation and explanations. The less emphasis there is on winning, the more the teachers/manager/coach can delegate their responsibilities. I look at my own DD, and she learned to call pitches now as a coach by a lot of years of experience in pitching to and observing hitters, and by talking with her coaches about their pitch-calling strategies. In the meantime, she won a whole lot of games and earned a chance to play in college through her execution of her coaches' strategies.

 

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I have emailed 4 D1 college coaches I know on this thread .. here is the first response I got back...

Hi there Doug,

Honestly, the catcher’s calling a game is a personal/philosophical choice per coach.
My catcher’s call their own games. I believe that the game is best played when the athletes play and control the game between the lines. So, I recruit catchers who call in their high school and summer ball seasons. I look for a catcher who understands the game, how to set up a hitter and how to call to pitcher’s strengths. When they join my program, I have a lot of discussion with them on setting up a batter and game calling per pitcher on staff. If they aren’t succeeding, I have no problem taking the game calling myself.

For me, I really think that the more summer ball and high school can teach an athlete about the “why” this is done in a game, in this situation, etc…the better prepared and knowledgeable the athlete will be about softball. Robot athletes, the ones who do X just because that’s where their coach designed the scenario, are the less instinctual athletes and the harder ones to coach at the collegiate level.

 

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Klump and Uber ... I very much respect your opinion and what you're trying to accomplish in teaching girls the game, and I am 100% for teaching them. I just feel that at the end of the day, no different than in the work office or in a professional or college sport, it is the coach's role to take responsibility for the overall strategy and for ensuring the goals of the team are met.

There are different ways to teach people that vary on the extremes from throwing someone out there to do things on their own (i.e., sink or swim) to leading by example and students/workers/athletes learning from observation and explanations. The less emphasis there is on winning, the more the teachers/manager/coach can delegate their responsibilities. I look at my own DD, and she learned to call pitches now as a coach by a lot of years of experience in pitching to and observing hitters, and by talking with her coaches about their pitch-calling strategies. In the meantime, she won a whole lot of games and earned a chance to play in college through her execution of her coaches' strategies.

Coach just so you know I prefer to call pitches myself. At the JV level I know the hitters far better then my catcher. I know a good number of JV kids that are very good at baiting catchers and/or pitchers.

But I really don't think this is a case of right or wrong but a matter of preference.

 

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Second reply from a D1 coach:

Coach Doug,

I have had catchers that called almost their entire career and others that have no desire. If a kid wants to call the game, I will teach them and prefer that. It just keeps the game flowing better. But some really don’t have the capacity to remember all the batters for whatever reason. They have to commit to the time of doing scouting reports with us and learning the opponents. I like to see a catcher (and pitcher) think for themselves in summer ball, but I wouldn’t not recruit a kid that hasn’t called for herself.

I look for leaders and kids that want to learn. If you have that, we can figure out what works best when they get here. Mostly kids that have relationships with their pitchers are the ones that will get that respect calling a game. They need to be good communicators – and a heck of a arm doesn’t hurt J

 

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It's a fact that coaching is a dictatorship. However, the amount of control coaches exert on the athletes during a game is directly proportional to the amount of trust that has been developed. A coach who feels his players can't win without micromanaging their every move, IMO, has not done his job. Fortunately, my DD never had to deal with that type of coaching.

I respect a quiet coach who merely gives his players hints about things that would be nearly impossible to remember every detail about... like an outfield shift, tendency to bunt, steal threat, etc. A catcher should not blindly call pitches on a whim, but base her decisions on training of what she sees about the batter, the situation and her pitcher, etc. When in doubt, a glance to the dugout coach can prompt a hint. That's not micromanaging - just smart coaching from a coach who is confident in his player's abilities. A catcher "learning on the job" calling a game should not compromise the team's effort to win - provided the coach has instructed her to take advantage of "hints from the bucket".

When I posed that question about pitch calling to several Ohio DI college coaches during DD's recruiting, I received pretty much the same response as Doug quoted. However, the majority of coaches stated that they NEVER let the catcher call the game, and a few also said pitcher's shaking off pitches was a no-no. Like the college coach quoted by Doug, the coach reserves the right to take over at any time.

Anyone is free to call any college coach they wish and make their own judgement. What you do with the information is up to you. But I think the theme you'll hear is that ALL college coaches want prepared, knowledgeable athletes - I just happen to think that pitch calling forces catchers to "buy in" to what's happening in games... the WHY part.

I think a challenge would be to find a DI catcher who went through 4 years of college play without thorough knowledge of knowing the how and why of calling pitches; blindly calling pitches as they were signaled in without any clue as to why. An even bigger challenge would be getting said DI catcher to admit that they were not qualified to call a college game when they were recruited, and the coach was aware of it.

It would be interesting to hear in a few years from those who feel it's totally unnecessary for college-bound catchers to learn pitch calling, after their daughters have completed their college play - especially from pitcher's & catcher's parents.

 

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Well what you said before is they should call every pitch period. Now you are saying they should know pitch calling. That, I can agree with. I have not seen anyone on this thread say it was totally unnecessary so I don't know who you hope to hear from 4 years after DD's college. LOL.

I don't micro-manage my daughter and I'm not a coach. So how I feel doesn't matter either way. I chauffeur and I cheer. Oh, and I write the dang checks.

 

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I have a 12 year old catcher playing on a 14U team. She's been fortunate enough to not only have incredible coaches, but she's had coaches who were catchers in the past. They've taught her everything she knows about catching which includes how to call a game. She loves it! It makes her more accountable and mentally focussed on the game. In fact, she's even commented on how it's helped her batting. When she's in the box, she is more aware of how she's positioned and what pitch may be comming due to the positioning of her feet.
I think it's great that she is knowledgeable about calling pitches whether it's something college coaches care about or not. I think it strengthens the bond of pitcher/catcher and that can only help a game.
In addition to calling pitches, I think catchers need feedback from coaches. My dd has coaches who are great about giving her positive feedback and feedback about her "opportunities". Sometimes we forget that kids need to be told when they do something right not just when they're doing something "wrong". It means a lot to my dd when a great game was pitched and her coaches recognize her efforts in addition to the pitchers...it truly is a "Team Effort".

Sorry...rambled on a bit...boils down to: I think it's great to have catchers call the game!

 

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What about coaches calling for a bunt vs. just letting the hitters do it on their own based on the situation? Not trying to start anything ... just trying to generate some good discussion, and understand if people see this any different than the catchers calling pitches ...

Funny you say that. I just spoke to my oldest and told her your question. She told me that both her high school coach and her rec coach lets her do this. She makes the decision whether or not to slap and where to place it. She has very good bat control, switch hitter, bunts both ways, and a slapper.


She told me that she reads the defense. In the case if there's base runners, they go over quickly and asks her what she may do. I gave her a scenario with runners on second and third. Where would she place the ball. First thing she told me was where the 3rd basemen is playing. If she is back, she will go down the 3rd baseline. She said too much happens right there and a high chance of the girl scoring because the 3rd basemen may be more concerned about the base runner than the ball.

 

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WARNING: This post is in regards to older players, not younger ones (although I support younger players calling games tooJ)

Now that I?ve read through all 8 pages?J here is my opinion. I am a 16U pitcher and have played travel ball for 5 years. Here are a few thoughts about calling a game at least from travel ball experience. I pitch better when I call my own game. I?m not just chucking whatever pitch a catcher throws down. You can ask any catcher that has ever called a game with me, I will shake you off as many times as it takes to get to the pitch that I want to throw. Look at it from a pitchers point of view, ultimately they are the one taking responsibility for every pitch that they throw, whether it?s from the coach or from the catcher. So if I give up a homerun (off of a pitch on the inside corner not a fatty down the middle) I have to take responsibility for it and I LOOK BAD (not the coach) whether I called it or a coach did.

What I do know is that when I call my own game during tournament ball I think better, I remember hitters better, and I focus better. It?s that simple. Coaches let your players call or at least give them a chance to help call. Because if you don?t, you?re not only keeping them from learning, but also hurting your team because a pitcher/catcher battery with confidence will almost always outcall you. They can see where a batter is in the box and read if they are shaking in their boots and when they get really good (after a little teaching) can pick up flaws in swings. My dad has always told me there are usually 2-3 pitches that you could throw to the batter and they would all have the same result (an out), there are usually only 1-2 pitches that are wrong. So unless you can read minds J I guarantee that the pitcher and catcher can call a game just as good as you can. JMHO

 

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WARNING: This post is in regards to older players, not younger ones (although I support younger players calling games tooJ)

Now that I?ve read through all 8 pages?J here is my opinion. I am a 16U pitcher and have played travel ball for 5 years. Here are a few thoughts about calling a game at least from travel ball experience. I pitch better when I call my own game. I?m not just chucking whatever pitch a catcher throws down. You can ask any catcher that has ever called a game with me, I will shake you off as many times as it takes to get to the pitch that I want to throw. Look at it from a pitchers point of view, ultimately they are the one taking responsibility for every pitch that they throw, whether it?s from the coach or from the catcher. So if I give up a homerun (off of a pitch on the inside corner not a fatty down the middle) I have to take responsibility for it and I LOOK BAD (not the coach) whether I called it or a coach did.

What I do know is that when I call my own game during tournament ball I think better, I remember hitters better, and I focus better. It?s that simple. Coaches let your players call or at least give them a chance to help call. Because if you don?t, you?re not only keeping them from learning, but also hurting your team because a pitcher/catcher battery with confidence will almost always outcall you. They can see where a batter is in the box and read if they are shaking in their boots and when they get really good (after a little teaching) can pick up flaws in swings. My dad has always told me there are usually 2-3 pitches that you could throw to the batter and they would all have the same result (an out), there are usually only 1-2 pitches that are wrong. So unless you can read minds J I guarantee that the pitcher and catcher can call a game just as good as you can. JMHO

You can't guarantee that not knowing the pitcher, catcher or coach??? Seen some real idiots out there in all three spots. LOL

Here is another spot where it would be nice if some college coaches would chime in. Would you move a pitcher up or down the list if you know they might throw what they want and not what you call? Would you deem that as a problem or like the fact they take control of the game?

Question for FireBird: You admit you are only going to throw what you want, no one can call your pitches. Would you carry that philosophy into college or play a different game there?

 

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Question for FireBird: You admit you are only going to throw what you want, no one can call your pitches. Would you carry that philosophy into college or play a different game there?

This philosophy in college won't fly, period.

 

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I agree with you Firebird, thanks for giving your opinion. We seldom hear the thoughts of the players on here and it is quite refreshing.

 

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WARNING: This post is in regards to older players, not younger ones (although I support younger players calling games tooJ)

Now that I?ve read through all 8 pages?J here is my opinion. I am a 16U pitcher and have played travel ball for 5 years. Here are a few thoughts about calling a game at least from travel ball experience. I pitch better when I call my own game. I?m not just chucking whatever pitch a catcher throws down. You can ask any catcher that has ever called a game with me, I will shake you off as many times as it takes to get to the pitch that I want to throw. Look at it from a pitchers point of view, ultimately they are the one taking responsibility for every pitch that they throw, whether it?s from the coach or from the catcher. So if I give up a homerun (off of a pitch on the inside corner not a fatty down the middle) I have to take responsibility for it and I LOOK BAD (not the coach) whether I called it or a coach did.

What I do know is that when I call my own game during tournament ball I think better, I remember hitters better, and I focus better. It?s that simple. Coaches let your players call or at least give them a chance to help call. Because if you don?t, you?re not only keeping them from learning, but also hurting your team because a pitcher/catcher battery with confidence will almost always outcall you. They can see where a batter is in the box and read if they are shaking in their boots and when they get really good (after a little teaching) can pick up flaws in swings. My dad has always told me there are usually 2-3 pitches that you could throw to the batter and they would all have the same result (an out), there are usually only 1-2 pitches that are wrong. So unless you can read minds J I guarantee that the pitcher and catcher can call a game just as good as you can. JMHO

I wonder why MLB pitchers don't call their own games???
Those guys make millions, study the hitters, do all the work to get to that level....????? Firebird sounds like she plays on teams, where the coach & other players just are not as good as she is.........Or so she thinks.....

At no level of football does the QB presently have control to make the play call. We see that in baseball, that HS & college coaches still call them, most if not all of the time. Now these are sports where the athlete can go on to make millions.

Not sure why everyone keeps making a big deal about catcher calling pitches. If she will not be doing it at the highest level - Div. I ball, that most seek to achieve - then what is the big deal??????

Whatever is the best system for each team is what should be used. I see many daddies calling pitches for their daughters from the stands. It is a TEAM sport - whatever is best for the team is what should be done!

 

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Doesn't matter who calls it, catcher has the best vantage point though and can see what ones are or aren't working. No matter the pitch called, the pitcher still has to hit the spot. Watch how many times the catchers glove moves from point of target to see how the pitcher is truly doing.

 

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Firebird sounds like she plays on teams, where the coach & other players just are not as good as she is.........Or so she thinks.....

I didn't get that at all.
Just seemed like she is saying that she bears the responibility of the pitches she throws so she thinks she should get an opinion on what is called. When the batter rips one of her pitches, she is the one who looks bad and gets the blame so she should have a say in what is thrown. Sounds resonable to me.

 

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You can't guarantee that not knowing the pitcher, catcher or coach??? Seen some real idiots out there in all three spots. LOL

Here is another spot where it would be nice if some college coaches would chime in. Would you move a pitcher up or down the list if you know they might throw what they want and not what you call? Would you deem that as a problem or like the fact they take control of the game?

Question for FireBird: You admit you are only going to throw what you want, no one can call your pitches. Would you carry that philosophy into college or play a different game there?

Ok I never said that I no one can call my pitches. If the catcher and I are calling pitches I will shake her off until were on the same page. If my coaches throw down specific pitches and I will throw them. The catcher and I have played together since I was in 7th grade and I play on a high level team, so we all know what we are doing and my coaches trust us. In other words they don?t have some of the egos that other coaches have. My point being is that if you know and believe your players to be some of the best, let them call.

Here is an example: I remember when Dallas Escobedo from Arizona State was in the WCWS and the catcher gave an interview about how she doesn?t really ever know what is coming. Dallas throws whatever she wants even though the coaches give her signs of what to throw. During high school I do not call and I don?t expect to call in college.

Klump That is exactly what I am saying

 

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Ok I never said that I no one can call my pitches. If the catcher and I are calling pitches I will shake her off until were on the same page. If my coaches throw down specific pitches and I will throw them. The catcher and I have played together since I was in 7th grade and I play on a high level team, so we all know what we are doing and my coaches trust us. In other words they don?t have some of the egos that other coaches have. My point being is that if you know and believe your players to be some of the best, let them call.

Here is an example: I remember when Dallas Escobedo from Arizona State was in the WCWS and the catcher gave an interview about how she doesn?t really ever know what is coming. Dallas throws whatever she wants even though the coaches give her signs of what to throw. During high school I do not call and I don?t expect to call in college.

Klump That is exactly what I am saying

Well that's different. Congrats on a situation that works for you and you are successful with. Hope you have another great year.

While's it nice you have the ability and the go ahead to for you and your catcher to call the games I think you are the exception. As many have said it depends on the situation. You are very knowledgeable and have a long relationship with your catcher. Most don't so I agree with what others have said, it's an individual thing, whatever works for your team. I think what you are saying is coaches should consider it. Some probably should.