Dp flex

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I know techically the DP now replaces the flex and the flex leaves the game. But please show me the rule verbiage that mandates that I cannot do wht is in my example.

Here is what was in your example:

"the Original Pitcher now in the Bench Spot swaps with the CF (Flex),"

Rule 4-3-F (ASA) and rule 3-3-6f (NFHS) say that the FLEX may be replaced by: 1) A legal substitute, or; 2) The DP. The Original Pitcher in this example is neither of those.

1) The Original Pitcher can't be inserted as a substitute in a different batting order/line-up position than she was originally listed in. The only line-up spot where the FLEX may legally bat is the one occupied by the DP.

2) The Original Pitcher obviously isn't the Designated Player. Another player has already been listed as the DP in the original batting order/line-up.

As already stated, you could accomplish this same defensive alignment with the same players, but you can't do it by replacing the FLEX with a player who has no right to occupy the FLEX position.

 

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solution===do away with the "flex" position all together.

 

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Thanks Bretman, I have read these both over and over and over. Trust me! And I am not trying to be argumentative, I truly see a distinction here or maybe I am just caught up in semantics. but:

Rule 4-3-F (ASA) and rule 3-3-6f (NFHS) say that the FLEX may be replaced by: 1) A legal substitute, or; 2) The DP. The Original Pitcher in this example is neither of those.

True, but the original pitcher is not out of the game and is still batting and therefore is not a substitute per se. She is just changing defensive positions just like F3 for F4.

When the DP (F10) changes with the pitcher (F1), is that a substitution?


1) The Original Pitcher can't be inserted as a substitute in a different batting order/line-up position than she was originally listed in. The only line-up spot where the FLEX may legally bat is the one occupied by the DP.

I am not changing the batting order at all. Just moving players in the field.

I guess I will continue to implement/enforce the rule as it is meant. But, for whatever reason, I see a loophole in the words for those rules!

Here is what was in your example:

"the Original Pitcher now in the Bench Spot swaps with the CF (Flex),"

Rule 4-3-F (ASA) and rule 3-3-6f (NFHS) say that the FLEX may be replaced by: 1) A legal substitute, or; 2) The DP. The Original Pitcher in this example is neither of those.

1) The Original Pitcher can't be inserted as a substitute in a different batting order/line-up position than she was originally listed in. The only line-up spot where the FLEX may legally bat is the one occupied by the DP.

2) The Original Pitcher obviously isn't the Designated Player. Another player has already been listed as the DP in the original batting order/line-up.

As already stated, you could accomplish this same defensive alignment with the same players, but you can't do it by replacing the FLEX with a player who has no right to occupy the FLEX position.

 

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Thanks Bretman, I have read these both over and over and over. Trust me! And I am not trying to be argumentative, I truly see a distinction here or maybe I am just caught up in semantics. but:

Rule 4-3-F (ASA) and rule 3-3-6f (NFHS) say that the FLEX may be replaced by: 1) A legal substitute, or; 2) The DP. The Original Pitcher in this example is neither of those.

True, but the original pitcher is not out of the game and is still batting and therefore is not a substitute per se. She is just changing defensive positions just like F3 for F4.

When the DP (F10) changes with the pitcher (F1), is that a substitution?


1) The Original Pitcher can't be inserted as a substitute in a different batting order/line-up position than she was originally listed in. The only line-up spot where the FLEX may legally bat is the one occupied by the DP.

I am not changing the batting order at all. Just moving players in the field.

I guess I will continue to implement/enforce the rule as it is meant. But, for whatever reason, I see a loophole in the words for those rules!

Here is what was in your example:

"the Original Pitcher now in the Bench Spot swaps with the CF (Flex),"

Rule 4-3-F (ASA) and rule 3-3-6f (NFHS) say that the FLEX may be replaced by: 1) A legal substitute, or; 2) The DP. The Original Pitcher in this example is neither of those.

1) The Original Pitcher can't be inserted as a substitute in a different batting order/line-up position than she was originally listed in. The only line-up spot where the FLEX may legally bat is the one occupied by the DP.

2) The Original Pitcher obviously isn't the Designated Player. Another player has already been listed as the DP in the original batting order/line-up.

As already stated, you could accomplish this same defensive alignment with the same players, but you can't do it by replacing the FLEX with a player who has no right to occupy the FLEX position.

 

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NOTE:
When using a Flex/DP, you have 10 players that can play ANY defensive position as long as the Flex is never in position F10(Bench)."

Can youshow the rule verbiage that states this?

I don't have my ASA rulebook with me but you could take a look at this from NFHS (same rule for Flex/DP I think): http://www.nfhs.org/WorkArea/DownloadAsset.aspx?id=3843

 

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Here is how I remember the differences:

The FLEX player:
Must ALWAYS play the field. Removing the FLEX player from the field is a substitution.

Can ONLY bat if she bats in the DP position. Since they are already in the game, they can not hit for any other player who is already in the batting order. If the FLEX bats, it is a substitution - the DP is now out of the game, and the lineup card now technically contains only 9 players.

The DP:
Must ALWAYS bat in their assigned position in the order.

Can play the field for any position EXCEPT the FLEX player (If the DP is fielding, and the FLEX player is on the bench, this is a substitution.)

SUBSTITUTING IN THE DP/FLEX ROLE:

Any player not in the game can be substituted into the DP position or the FLEX position. The lineup card does not change (the DP/FLEX card is still intact).

If the DP fields for the FLEX, or if the FLEX bats for the DP, it is a substitution and the lineup card technically is now reduced to 9 players. The lineup can be restored to the DP/FLEX configuration by announcing a re-entry, since the player who left has one re-entry left.

If the same DP/FLEX substitution happens a second time, then the player who left is out of the game, and the lineup is now permanently locked at 9 players.

 

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I guess I will continue to implement/enforce the rule as it is meant. But, for whatever reason, I see a loophole in the words for those rules!

Trying not to make this sound too confusing...because I know that DP/FLEX issues can be confusing enough as it is!

At the end of your scenario, you have to account for the FLEX not being on the field.

There are really only two options here. Either:

1) The FLEX must be playing defense (which is fine, because that's her primary role).

-OR-

2) The FLEX is not playing defense. If she's not, then that means she has left the game and has been replaced by the DP.

This isn't just "technically" the right answer...it is in actuality the only correct answer!

 

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line up.
1.p4
2.p6
3.p1 is flex/ player x is dp bats
4.p3
5.p2
6.p8
7.p9
8.p5
9.p7

In this scenario my dp hits for pitcher may play defense for anyone (correct?) and if i change pitchers,she either plays defense somewhere else or i may remove her from game taking line up down to 9.and later i put her back in to hit may only bat in 3 hole for dp. Please God let this be correct because i thought i understood the dp/flex until reading this post.

 

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The umpire in me would prefer to see it listed on a line-up card like this:

1. F4
2. F6
3. DP
4. F3
5 .F2
6. F8
7. F9
8. F5
9. F7
10. F1- FLEX

In this scenario my dp hits for pitcher may play defense for anyone (correct?)

Yes. If the DP plays defense for the FLEX, then the FLEX has left the game. If she plays defense for anyone else, then they have not left the game.

if i change pitchers,she (do you mean the FLEX?) either plays defense somewhere else or i may remove her from game taking line up down to 9

I think you have this right. It depends on how you change pitchers.

If you make a direct substitution for the girl in the FLEX position, then you would still have a FLEX in the line-up. If the new pitcher is someone off the bench, then somebody has to leave the line-up.

Or, it could just be a positional swap, say, F6 comes in to pitch and F1 goes to play shortstop, you still have a FLEX in the game.

Or, you can just tell the umpire that the DP will now be playing defense for the FLEX. That way you go to a nine-position line-up. You can either re-enter a FLEX at any point in the game, or stay at nine the rest of the game.

later i put her (the FLEX, right?) back in to hit may only bat in 3 hole for dp.

Yes. The FLEX player may only bat in the line-up spot designated for the DP. If she does, the the DP has left the game and you are now batting nine. The DP may re-enter at any point. If she does, the player in the DP slides back down to the ten-hole and is again the FLEX player.

I think you got it!

 

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The umpire in me would prefer to see it listed on a line-up card like this:

1. F4
2. F6
3. DP
4. F3
5 .F2
6. F8
7. F9
8. F5
9. F7
10. F1- FLEX

With the line-up written this way it appears that you are batting 10? I always thought with DP/Flex, you play 9 and bat 9. No?

 

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krr ... you do play and bat 9 ... always ... but that is the way it is supposed to be written on the lineup card in the 10 position.

Question to Bretman ... so let's say the Flex is playing in the outfield, and you keep her in one inning and send out the DP to play defense. I assume this has to be reported because the Flex is out of the game? Let's say it's not reported and no one notices it until a ball is hit to the outfield which the original DP catches. Now what happens?

 

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Question to Bretman ... so let's say the Flex is playing in the outfield, and you keep her in one inning and send out the DP to play defense. I assume this has to be reported because the Flex is out of the game? Let's say it's not reported and no one notices it until a ball is hit to the outfield which the original DP catches. Now what happens?

Whenever the DP plays defense for the FLEX, or the FLEX bats for the DP, it must be reported to the plate umpire. This is because in these two cases a player has actually left the game. It has to be tracked because this affects the player's re-entry rights.

If it's not reported, then it is treated as an unreported substitution. There really isn't much of a penalty for that.

In ASA you simply note the change on the line-up and play on- no penalty.

In high school, the first offense is also a team warning. For a second offense, the player and the head coach are both restricted to the bench.

 

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Ive usef the dp flex but pretty much as youd use a dh in baseball...i know im missing the true advantage. Soooo...

I have a state champion sprinter on my team. Can i have her run for the first baserunner every inning? I know itd be a reentry when the person she runs for goes back in.

 

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Ive usef the dp flex but pretty much as youd use a dh in baseball...i know im missing the true advantage. Soooo...

I have a state champion sprinter on my team. Can i have her run for the first baserunner every inning? I know itd be a reentry when the person she runs for goes back in.

No.

 

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...but i can have her play any position on the field any inning. What prevents me from just not making that sub the half inning prior, when were at bat and have a runner on?

...knew it was too good to be true.

 

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Can i run her repeatedly for the dp?

 

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While tournament rules can vary, generally speaking all players can re-enter a game one time. Once you have taken them out a second time, they are out of the game. Other than courtesy runners for the pitcher and catcher, all players are tied to one spot in the order and this can never change. So no, she can not run for the first baserunner of every inning. The DP and flex are tied to the same spot in the batting order. If you want, you can PM me and I will explain further any questions you have.

 

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Can i run her repeatedly for the dp?

I assume the "track star" is your FLEX player...

Yes, she can run repeatedly for the DP. Just remember that whenever she does, the DP is considered to have left the game and would need to use a re-entry to come back in. So, the second time she runs for the same player, that player is out of the game for good. Of course you can always put a new player off the bench into the DP position and, if she gets on base, the FLEX can run for her again. You can repeat that process for the entire game, as long as you have enough subs to cover it.

 

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Thanks guys.

So once the flex is introduced into the batting order, she can only pop in and out of that spot in the order, correct?

 

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Bretman:

Ted and I were having a conversation last night about how the DP/flex might have been used to allow for more runners to replace Traina when she got on base. Here is my recollection of what some refer to as the "Stacy Nuveman example":

Make your big hitter (for example Nuveman) the flex, have the line-up become official, and then announce to blue that you are going down to 9 players and that the flex will bat for herself. This means that the rostered DP has left the game and will only be allowed one re-entry. Then, when Nuveman gets on, have the DP run for her, telling Blue that you are going up to ten players but that when your team takes the field the next inning you are returning to 9. This means that when you return to 9 in the top half of the next inning, the DP has left the game again and she is burned. But you can still go up and down from 9 to 10 to 9 when Nuveman gets on as long as you have eligible subs (who presumably can run better than Nuveman) after the new DP has been burned. A mandatory sub for Nuveman is not at issue because the flex has never left the game under the DP/flex rule.

Have I got that right?