DP/Flex Question

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Here is the line up in order with names (made up of course) and position:

1. alice 5
2. jane 8
3. betty 6
4. cindy 3
5. joan 1
6. sue 4
7. pam 2
8. tammy DP
9. tonya 7
10. carrie flex/9

Here is the situation/question:
Coach wants to put Tammy (DP) on the mound and take Joan off the field, but keep her in the batting order, thus turning her into the DP.

Arguement A: Coach can put any 9 on defense, even the DP AND keep the flex position.

Arguement B: The DP must stay in the 8 spot in the batting order. You must pull the flex in order to put Tammy on the mound and Joan would also have to stay on the field somewhere unless substituted out.

Argument C: Anything else I may have missed.

Let me hear it.

 

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Firstly, you gotta get an Emily, Elizabeth, Taylor or Morgan. Every team has one.

 

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Here is the line up in order with names (made up of course) and position:

1. alice 5
2. jane 8
3. betty 6
4. cindy 3
5. joan 1
6. sue 4
7. pam 2
8. tammy DP
9. tonya 7
10. carrie flex/9

Here is the situation/question:
Coach wants to put Tammy (DP) on the mound and take Joan off the field, but keep her in the batting order, thus turning her into the DP.


Arguement A: Coach can put any 9 on defense, even the DP AND keep the flex position.

Arguement B: The DP must stay in the 8 spot in the batting order. You must pull the flex in order to put Tammy on the mound and Joan would also have to stay on the field somewhere unless substituted out.


Argument C: Anything else I may have missed.


Let me hear it.

You can not turn Joan into the DP, Tammy is just playing defense for Joan, Tammy is still the DP and Joan stays in the batting order.

A)Yes, the DP and Flex can play defense at the same time.
B)Yes, No, No.
C)Just a rule note: the only place the flex can enter the game is in the DP slot. The DP leaves the game and now you are playing with 9 not 10 but you can always go back to 10 if you started with 10. In all cases other than the DP playing spot defense for anyone, the regular substitution rules apply.

 

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This is from the ASA 2011 rule book, page 49, Rule 4, Section 3, paragraph E. I am assuming that NFHS is the same.

The DP may play any defensive position. Should the DP play defense for a player other than the one for whom the DP is batting (Flex), that player will continue to bat but not play defense, and is not considered to have left the game. If the DP plays defense for the Flex, the Flex is considered to have left the game. This reduces the number of players from 10 to 9. The Flex can re-enter the game.

 

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Firstly, you gotta get an Emily, Elizabeth, Taylor or Morgan. Every team has one.

The most confusing team I ever had was the year we had a Kristen, Kirsti, Kaitlyn, Kailee and Courtney. I was stuttering. ;-)

 

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I think it helps if you consider the DP as position "10" on your lineup card instead of as a "DP". You can switch anyone into the "10" fielding position (which is actually a seat on the bench), the same way you switch someone into the "1", "2","3", etc fielding positions. Hope that makes sense and did not create more confusion, but in short, Argument A is the correct one - DP can go into the field and someone else become sit out.

Also, as noted by others, the FLEX can only bat in the "original" DP position in the lineup if brought into the batting order and the "original" DP is out of the game...but can re-enter/

 

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The DP can play any defensive position, for any player other than the FLEX, and it is not considered as a substitution. That is, the player the DP is playing defense for is not considered to have left the game. The DP was in the game before she played defense, and she's still in the game when she plays the field, so she has neither left the game or re-entered.

It's only considered a substitution if the DP plays defense for the FLEX. Then, the FLEX has left the game and is subject to all substitution/re-entry rules. But, again, the DP has neither left or re-entered- she was in the game and is still in the game.

If the coach puts the DP in to pitch (ie:replace Joan to play defense)...

The DP (Tammy) is still the DP and still bats in the 8th spot.

Joan continues to bat in the 5th spot (ie: continues to play offense). She is not considered to have left the game for purposes of the substitution rule.

The FLEX player is unaffected by all this. She may continue to play defense as she was before.

Clear as mud?

 

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Wasn't this an Abbott & Costello routine?

 

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Ok, since the DP went into the game to pitch the top half of the inning. She pitched the entire inning. When she bats in the bottom half of the inning and reaches base, can she have a courtesy runner?

 

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Lets add some additional "twist" to this thread. At the start of the game, the flex, (carrie) starts on the bench. While tammy (DP) is in the field. Should carrie, (the flex) be considered "left the game" and subject to the substitution rule?

1. alice 5
2. jane 8
3. betty 6
4. cindy 3
5. joan 1
6. sue 4
7. pam 2
8. tammy DP
9. tonya 7
10. carrie flex/9

 

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Ok, since the DP went into the game to pitch the top half of the inning. She pitched the entire inning. When she bats in the bottom half of the inning and reaches base, can she have a courtesy runner?

Yes, she can have a courtesy runner- because she was the last player who physically played the position of pitcher.

 

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A player who played one of two positions (pitcher / catcher) in the previous defensive inning can have a courtesy runner, subject to the rules around who is allowed to run. For high school, it would be a player not in the game, and one who had not run for the player in the "other" position (in this case - catcher).

If the flex runs for the DP, that is a substitution.

 

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Lets add some additional "twist" to this thread. At the start of the game, the flex, (carrie) starts on the bench. While tammy (DP) is in the field. Should carrie, (the flex) be considered "left the game" and subject to the substitution rule?

1. alice 5
2. jane 8
3. betty 6
4. cindy 3
5. joan 1
6. sue 4
7. pam 2
8. tammy DP
9. tonya 7
10. carrie flex/9

Since this is the official line-up that you turned in at the conference, then you must first report to the plate umpire that the DP is playing defense for the Flex. Then the Flex is subject to all substitution rules.

 

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Yes, she can have a courtesy runner- because she was the last player who physically played the position of pitcher.

A player who played one of two positions (pitcher / catcher) in the previous defensive inning can have a courtesy runner, subject to the rules around who is allowed to run. For high school, it would be a player not in the game, and one who had not run for the player in the "other" position (in this case - catcher).

If the flex runs for the DP, that is a substitution.

As a scorekeeper, that would be a lot of lead being used in this game.

 

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Lets add some additional "twist" to this thread. At the start of the game, the flex, (carrie) starts on the bench. While tammy (DP) is in the field. Should carrie, (the flex) be considered "left the game" and subject to the substitution rule?

Yes, the FLEX has left the game.

- The FLEX must be listed on the official line-up card at the start of the game. As such, she is officially "in the game". If she wasn't listed, then you do not have the option using a DP/FLEX that game.

- When officially in the game, the FLEX really has only one duty- to play defense. The only way the DP can be on defense and the FLEX not is if the FLEX has left the game.

- I'm wondering why a coach would burn a substitution by doing this?

 

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Yes, the FLEX has left the game.

- The FLEX must be listed on the official line-up card at the start of the game. As such, she is officially "in the game". If she wasn't listed, then you do not have the option using a DP/FLEX that game.

- When officially in the game, the FLEX really has only one duty- to play defense. The only way the DP can be on defense and the FLEX not is if the FLEX has left the game.

- I'm wondering why a coach would burn a substitution by doing this?

Our HS coach does it so she can keep a bat in the line-up for the #2 pitcher if/when she changes pitchers. This is only an issue for us because the #1 is susceptible to being removed after only throwing a handful of pitches due to illegal pitches. It all depends on whether the base umpire calls the IPs or not.

 

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A player who played one of two positions (pitcher / catcher) in the previous defensive inning can have a courtesy runner, subject to the rules around who is allowed to run. For high school, it would be a player not in the game, and one who had not run for the player in the "other" position (in this case - catcher).

In the top of the 1st inning, the players eligible for courtesy runners are identified as the ones listed as pitcher and catcher on the lineup. The courtesy runner rules are basically the same for ASA, although NFHS requires players listed as pitcher and catcher on the lineup face the first batter on defense (one pitch).

As a scorekeeper, that would be a lot of lead being used in this game.

I keep track of courtesy runners and the position they ran for (i.e. CR-1 or CR-2) at the bottom of the page where they're listed as reserves.