Was this the correct call

Discussion in 'The Umpires Life and Rulings' started by Coach H, Jul 14, 2020.

  1. Coach H

    Coach H New Member

    Bases loaded with 1 out. Batter hits a pop fly in the infield to 2B. Runners on base hold and 2B drops the ball. Runners take off and 2B throws ball to 3B where runner is tagged out, but runner on 3B crossed the plate before the tag. Umpires conference and comeback and say batter was out on infield fly and runner running from 2B to 3B was out on a force out, inning over run doesn’t count. Also umpire did not call infield fly while the ball was in the air, only after the umpire conference.

    what should have the call been. I know my thoughts.
     
  2. RedsDad

    RedsDad New Member

    Okay, my morning coffee hasn’t quite kicked in yet, so maybe I’m missing something. How can it be a force out for the base runners if the batter is called out on the infield fly, and therefore the runners are not “forced” to advance?
     
    daboss likes this.
  3. Coach H

    Coach H New Member

    Don’t feel bad we were all confused lol. Again the first issue was the umpire never called infield fly, so when the ball was dropped by the 2B, all runners took off like they should. Than the 2B picked up the ball and threw to the 3B who wasn’t not on the base, but was able to put a tag on the runner coming from 2B.

    My take on the call: Runner from 3B scores. runner from 2B is out. Runner from 1B advances to 2B. Batter reaches on error and there is now 2 outs.
     
    RedsDad likes this.
  4. AndrewGeorge

    AndrewGeorge Member

    but you stated it started with bases loaded and 1 out already? Infield Fly means the batter is out and then the tag out of the runner at 3rd base would be the 3rd out? If the runner crossed plate prior to tag at 3rd the runs should count?
     
  5. Coach H

    Coach H New Member

    The infield fly was never called until after the umpires conference. If the umpire would have called infield fly while the ball was in the air, all runners would have stayed on their appropriate base and not tried to advance; however, that was not the case, umpire did not call infield fly and 2B dropped the ball, in which case all runners now need to try and advance.
     
  6. BretMan2

    BretMan2 TSZ/OFC Umpire in Chief

    Umpires may retroactively call the infield fly if they neglected to call it (and it was really indeed an infield fly). So, that part is okay.

    But...you can never, ever have a force out on the bases after the batter has been put out. Once the batter is out, runners are no longer forced to advance. That part of their ruling is totally wrong.
     
  7. Infield fly rule is specifically designed to prevent double plays (it is the only reason it is a rule). No way should a double play be called if the umpire failed in the mechanics of the play.

    IMO, disregard the infield fly rule (that was not called initially) and call the girl out going to 3rd. Runner scores and there are now 2 outs with runners on first and second.
     
  8. BretMan2

    BretMan2 TSZ/OFC Umpire in Chief

    If you ignore the infield fly, when it really was an infield fly, then you have misinterpreted a playing rule. That is grounds for a protest.
     
  9. If a mistake by an umpire puts a runner at a disadvantage, that is a correctable error. Enforcing the infield fly rule AFTER the play has been completed and rewarding the defense with an additional out should never be acceptable.

    There should be only two outcomes of this play. Umpire says that they did not believe it was an infield fly rule and the play stands as I posted above.

    -or-

    That it was an infield fly rule and the runner from 2nd was put into jeopardy by the mistake by the umpire. That runner is returned to 2nd and the runner now on 2nd is returned to 1st. Batter is out. The run should still count.

    The safest is the first one because it is a judgement call. Considering that the ball dropped, it makes sense to leave it that way. Crazy to think an infield fly rule would be called after a play and reward the defense with a double play.
     
    Bob45429 likes this.
  10. Coach H

    Coach H New Member

    Thanks for the response. This was our thinking as well. We tried making these same points to the umpire, and he wouldn’t even listen. If we were losing or if it was a closer game we probably would have protested. The sad thing is not being able to explain to the 12U girls exactly what happened and why, besides it was a bad call.

    I wish I could say that was the only bad call that game.
     
  11. BretMan2

    BretMan2 TSZ/OFC Umpire in Chief

    Yes, I did say that you can- and should- enforce the infield fly after the play. That is perfectly allowable.

    But nowhere did I say that you would keep the other out and allow a double play. I didn’t even address the other runners. The answer to that is to place the other runners where they most likely would have reached had the infield fly been called in a timely manner.

    On this one, since runners didn’t take off until the ball was dropped, I’d probably put them back on the bases where they started. But there is no set in stone, one size fits all answer. Runner placement is up to the judgment of the umpires. You don’t want to reward an unearned double play and you don’t want either side to be put at a disadvantage.

    The best answer is...don’t forget to call the infield fly in the first place!
     
    RedsDad and Tallmadge Force Gold like this.

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