Was the ump correct

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We had a call in our game on Saturday that had me baffled. Girl has two strikes on her and she swings at pitch, it hits her fingers and goes catcher does not catch. Now here is where it gets strange. Ump calls her out on for a third strike. Now if the hands are part of the bat and the ball hits her hands but not the bat, shouldn't it be a foul tip? He said she was out because it hit her hands and not the bat. It was 11:30 at night and I think he just wanted to go home. Also, catcher did not touch girl even if he was correct, she was still at plate and didn't go back to the dugout. So if he is correct, she didn't get tagged, he automatically called her out.

Was he correct?

 

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A few similar posts to this recently.

Let me see if I get this all correct.

First - hands are not part of the bat, that's a myth (tried that argument myself recently, didn't work ? ). ?Since it didn't hit the bat (hit her hands) and she swung - I say it's deadball, strike 3. ?

 

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The umpire was 100% correct.

(It's nice to start off a post with that phrase for a change... ? )

Contrary to popular belief, long held rule myths or what you might have been told on the playground as a kid, the hands ARE NOT part of the bat. They are part of the BATTER.

Anytime a pitch touches a batter the ball is immediately dead. If the batter was swinging it is a strike. If it was strike three the batter is out. No need for the catcher to tag her or make a play.

Maybe it was 11:30 and maybe he really did want to go home. That doesn't automatically mean that the umpire is a cheater because he made a call you didn't understand.

Just to address another rule myth in your post, a ball that nicks the bat and goes straight back, but is not caught by the catcher is NEVER a foul tip. It is just a plain old foul ball.

 

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Heard the following exchange at Compuware:

Coach: "The hands are part of the bat, that's a foul ball"

Ump: "When you bought that bat, did hands come with it?"

 

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I'll have to remember that one, funny. Only hope to be able to use it sometime.

 

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Oh also another thing. Not saying he cheated, don't remember writing that at all. Just wanted to see if he was right or not. He made a call the previous inning. Ball hits off the batters foot, very obvious, and we
didn't throw the ball to the plate as we assumed it was a deadball, runner scores and he says safe! We argued the ball hit the batters foot, she was hopping around, and he says he didn't see it. Didn't ask the field ump or anything. Besides those two calls, I thought he was very fair. I don't normally question an ump on calls. As I am not in his position, I don't know if it crosses a corner, hard to see from my seat. Unlike many on here who think they can see better than the ump. Trust me, neither of these two calls would have made a difference in the score, we were playing a very good team and lost fairly to them.

 

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If you're seeing umpires call this as a foul ball, you are seeing umpires make the absolutely wrong call.

You say that you "fully understand the rules" behind this, but apparently you do not.

Note (again) that anytime a pitched ball touches the batter, the ball is immediately [highlight]dead[/highlight] at that point. Anything that happens next- if the ball is caught or dropped by the catcher, if the ball rolls fair or foul, if the batter tries to run to first or if the defense makes a play on her- is moot.

The third strike rule does not apply here because the ball is dead and the batter- by virtue of being hit by the pitch while swinging- is already out.

This same rule is in effect from the lowest levels of kiddie ball all the way up through the Major Leagues.

 

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A little touchy aren't you?

 

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(Sorry if my last post seems a little "out of context", but I was responding to your earlier post that seems to have been either deleted or entirely edited, so some of the points I addressed have disappeared.)

If you are implying that an umpire made an incorrect call and purposely called a player out just because "it was late and he wanted to get home", then you are accusing that umpire of cheating.

On your other call, the batted ball going off the batter's foot, maybe they missed that one. The plate umpire's view on this play is usually obstructed by both the catcher and the batter. Sometimes, you would need to have X-Ray vision to see it!

Maybe he didn't see it and maybe he should have checked with his partner (who is positioned about 90 feet away, has other responsibilities to keep an eye on, like illegal pitching motions or runners leaving base early, and may not have clearly seen it himself).

Or, maybe, he saw it just fine (you acknowledge that the umpire has a better view than the spectators behind the fence) and judged that the ball did not hit the batter's foot.

From a coaching standpoint, you should teach your players to never "assume" the ball is dead until they actually hear the umpire declare it as such. Teach them to complete the play until the umpire actually signals "dead ball".

 

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No- not touchy at all.

Simply resonding to your own (erroneous) words and statements with a factual reply.

You seem to want an explanation to this call and I tried to provide one that is grounded in the actual rules.

Sorry if you are not getting the answer you expected.

 

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Good one, Bret. The softball scene is filled with people who could learn an awful lot about the game if they'd just listen to those who actually do.

 

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Reason why I don't ask questions. You people make everyone who asks for clarification on a rule look like they are stupid. I never one time said the umpire cheated. I said I was baffled on a call PERIOD!@!
> > >

Then when I asked another question you get all bent out of shape that I didn't totally take your word for it. You are correct, I was wrong happy??? Heaven forbid anyone wants to learn the game of softball. Everyone one on here hasn't been playing, watching, umpiring or anything else since the turn of the century. EXCUSE ME!!!!

 

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Bretman:

Please please please keep answering our questions. I hate to see someone reading you the riot act when you have so freely shared your knowledge with all of us over the years I suspect I speak for many, many OFCers when I say THANK YOU for all your answers to questions that have been posed

 

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bretman: There is one time I teach my players to assume the ball is dead before an umpire calls it. When a batter hits a ball off of her foot, I teach them to stay right in the box and even shake their foot. A batter will be out at least 95% of the time if she runs. And if she runs, she usually won't get the foul ball call, as to where she will get it every time if she doesn't run.

 

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Don't worry, cgs. My skin is a lot thicker than that...

Joe, you have a good point on how your batter can react on this play. I'm sure that you don't tell your defense to lay down on this one, as the defense did in the above post!

Sftbllm0m, you seem upset and I'm not sure why. I went back and read my answers and didn't see anything offensive and certainly didn't call you stupid. If any post in this thread is "bent out of shape" it would have to be the last one you made.

As for the whole "cheating" thing, first you seemed to think that the umpire incorrectly called your batter out, then you said (QUOTE) "It was 11:30 at night and I think he just wanted to go home." (UNQUOTE). All I can draw from that is that you are implying that your batter was called out just to get the game over with quicker. If that is not what you meant, what other reason could you possibly have for even making that statement?

Any umpire that would purposely misapply a rule for his own personal agenda is, in effect, cheating.

But let's forget all that- along with every other word posted in this thread.

You presented a play and asked, "Was this correct?".

I answered, "The umpire was 100% correct".

I'll just stick with that answer and wish you and your team the best of luck this season (even though you would walk away from that answer with absolutely no idea why it is correct, or which rule should be applied, or be any less "baffled" than when you first started out).

 

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I never said I was a coach, as you can see by my name I am a softball mom. That is why I asked for clarification. I asked a question, had it answered and then you started assuming I meant things. Well if you read my posts I said this umpire was extremely fair, I just wanted to know if he was right. That should have been the extent of your answer. You made me feel stupid when I wrote foul tip instead of foul ball. So what, I don't care if they aren't the same thing. You also stated "This same rule is in effect from the lowest levels of kiddie ball all the way up through the Major Leagues" . That is being
condesending because I have always been told the hands are part of the bat. I understand what you said I even agree with the call once you explained it. That is the whole reason I asked the question in the first place. But I am not going to sit here and let you put words in my mouth I never said nor meant.

Please continue to answer everyone with your weath of knowledge because us poor moms can't seem to have the capacity to understand you.

 

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I never said or assumed you were a coach, either. Sorry if being mistaken for a coach is offensive to you.

If you hadn't deleted one of your replies, it would be apparent that you didn't seem to agree with the first answer you got. You went on to offer up several more reasons why you thought this was the wrong call. But that post has disappeared, so we'll never know.

Don't feel stupid about not knowing the difference between a "foul tip" and a "foul ball". If I had to make a list of the top five most misunderstood softball rules, that one would be near the top of the list. That the "hands are part of the bat" might be number one.

If you weren't trying to imply that the umpire was bending the rules to support his own personal agenda, I would be curious to know what you meant by, "It was 11:30 at night and I think he just wanted to go home." Maybe I'm missing your point with that comment. If you meant something else and could explain it to me, I promise not to feel stupid.

 

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"From a coaching standpoint, you should teach your players to never "assume" the ball is dead until they actually hear the umpire declare it as such. Teach them to complete the play until the umpire actually signals "dead ball".


Why don't you just let it go? I already said you were correct. That is why I deleted the post. After I reread yours, understood what you said, then I deleted the post almost immediately you are the only one to keep harping on that. The other comment was an off hand remark. Like I said I never one time implied that he was cheating nor did I mean it that way. I know that umpires have to have tough skins, people always disagree with them. Think they know more than them etc. There is a reason why they have to be sanctioned becasue they are supposed to know the rules. However, I simply wanted clarification on a rule, you gave it to me and then made me feel stupid because I asked or wrote things in the first place. Isn't that why we ask questions? If your read my first post you will see I did not ever say anything but I was baffled at the call. Next, your posts talk about my defense on my team. Well since my daughter is part of the team that is why I call it our team. I have nothing against coaches either! So I don't know why you even said that.

Isn't that why this forum is here so that people can understand the game?

 

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Softball mom - good question. Bretman - good answer.

Sometimes in written communications like this the tone can be misinterpreted and I think that's what happened on both sides here.

Softball mom, please keep posting and asking these kinds of questions, and bretman, please keep posting and answering.

But lets move on from this one now ...

 

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By prefacing that comment with, "From a coaching standpoint", I was clearly making a general comment about anyone actually coaching a team. That in no way, shape or form implies that you, yourself, personally are the coach of this team. It seemed obvious that you were not. For anyone who is not a coach, feel free to ignore the advice.

Sometimes we branch off on related topics here, and that was one such case. It is just the nature of this forum.

It is never my intention to make anyone on this board feel "stupid". I try to stick to the facts and answer questions in a non-judgmental manner. Yes, sometimes I will reinforce my points with extreme examples, like the one that this rule is the same "all the way from kiddie ball up to the Major Leagues". That is a true statement and underscores the fact that this rule should be handled the same way at all levels of the game. If that makes you feel "stupid", well, I cannot control how another individual feels about themself or how they interpret what I write.

"Why don't you just let it go?" That is good advice (even if it is coming from someone with just as many threads in this post as I have made, which makes me wonder if you really want to "let it go&quot.