Run Ruling...when is enough....ENOUGH!

Okay, got a question about "run-ruling". ?We all hate to be run-ruled. ?Its humiliating for the players, the coaches and for the fans (not that I'm speaking from experience or anything.....). ?Everytime I've ever seen this happen, there's always some guy from the team thats being run-ruled going on about how its unethical for a Coach to allow his team to beat & disgrace their opponent in that manner. ?There's supposed to be some "unwritten rule" among Coaches about stopping, or atleast slowing the beating process in order to save the dignity of the other team and allow the winning team to remain fair & compassionate. ?So, I'm wondering....is there such a "un-written" rule? ?I'd like to know what you "Coaches" think about situations like this and what you think is the best way to deal with them. ?

Ultimately it is not my responsibility to stop my team...that is what the other team is supposed to due. ?However, I think there comes a time when enough is enough and you have to call off the dogs...However, in many situations the girls being beaten are aware that you have called them off and often this is more humiliating than ever. ?There is no real right answer in this situation ?:-/. ?It is a great time to practice weaknesses in game situations though.

Often, when my team is in the winning situation, we try to focus on the new things we're learning....like hitting to the right side behind runners, hit & run, pitchouts, etc. There are way too many things going on during a game to worry about the opponents' feelings. When we're on the losing side, we focus on our fundamentals & however we can stop the bleeding.

For me, there is a time when you start easing up, but it's different for every opponent and given day; also generally at a higher score than most people believe. When I have determined that my opponent has no chance of catching back up though (generally not a luxury at the higher levels), we'll stop stealing and tone down the aggressiveness of our base running, maybe turn a batter or two around, but try and do it in such a way as to not make it obvious.

I really don't think that many coaches want to humiliate their opposing coaches or team. It is simply the nature of the game and the way the Mercy rules are.

For instance in a bracket where you play back-to-back-to-back on Sunday, it is in you teams best interest to get out of every game as fast as possible to get your girls some rest. Now what do you have to do to make that happen; you have to beat your opponent by 15 or more in three innings, etc... You are more or less being forced to keep pressing for the good of your team and the feelings on the other side are moot.

In pool play they use run differential as tie breakers for your seeding in brackets. Once again setting up the weaker teams for a butt whoopen for the good of your team. It is not like this is a common occurance, but you never want to be on the loosing end. JMHO

I'll probably get labeled as the bad guy with the black hat, but I'm giving my honest opinion anyway. First, I've been on the losing end of MANY mercy rules. I HATE to lose as much as anyone, but I simply have a different viewpoint.

First and MOST IMPORTANT - To me, there is a BIG difference between rec. softball and club or travel softball. A mercy rule in rec. ball is a travesty. Shame on the organizers for either not having strict limitations, or letting their coaches "run up the score". Not so in travel ball, and in my mind there is no middle ground. You are either playing rec. or travel. A fairly recent development is tournaments that allow rec. teams to transition from rec. to travel. BUT - this is STILL travel ball, not developmental rec.

I don't think I've ever heard a college coach complain about another team "running up the score". I, for one, wouldn't want my DD playing for the coach that DID complain. Ever hear Tressel blame the other team for winning? Nope - he just applauds the other team for executing extremely well. Then he goes back and works with his team to get better. That's a winning attitude. A coach needs to have a plan. At what point should a coach move the team into travel ball? Should they stay in rec.? Are they ready for tough competition? Do they take losing in stride as a learning experience, or do they get defensive and take it as an insult? Should we be softer on them "because they're girls"? How did we get twisted around to where we're blaming the winning team for, well - winning??

IMO, if you're playing competitive travel ball and you happen to get in over your head and get mercy ruled a few games, just chalk it up to a learning experience. But DON'T blame the other team and coach for being unsportsmanlike. Most tournaments have a mercy rule anyway, and there are umpires to handle the unsportsmanlike actions that violate the rules. If you're regularly losing 25-0 after two innings, as a coach, you need to re-evaluate some things. Getting upset at the other team is not making your team better! But it does send a message to your girls about handling losing in competitive sports by blaming your opponent and not taking responsibility for team mistakes and lack of skill development.

Getting your team in the mindset to work hard and get better is a more logical path. In simple terms - don't get mad, go get better!

I guess I'm a bad guy too - In rec ball my dd's 12U team has about 6 girls who could still play 10U and they are still winning every game - When we get too far ahead, they quit stealing home, and move the girls into other positions they don't normally play - the other teams still complain. We have a group of girls that love to play ball and a great coach to help develop them and it feels like the girls get punished for being good even though we call the girls off.

However, Travel ball is another ball game. It is meant to be competative and hopefully when you are on the losing end, you learn from your mistakes and try to improve your skills and the team winning shows some class and good sportsmanship.

TheBearMay said:

For me, there is a time when you start easing up, but it's different for every opponent and given day; also generally at a higher score than most people believe. ?When I have determined that my opponent has no chance of catching back up though (generally not a luxury at the higher levels), we'll stop stealing and tone down the aggressiveness of our base running, maybe turn a batter or two around, but try and do it in such a way as to not make it obvious. ?

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I could not of said it better myself.

If a team wants to be a real travelball team and they are continually getting run ruled then evetually they will learn what it will take to not get run ruled. It is a process.

I guess I will be the bad guy the other way. I DO FEEL that there is a time when enough in enough. If you are beating someone 21-0 in the third inning and you are the visiting team, Do you still bunt?, do you still Steal? Do you still run on a pass ball? If you do then you are running up the score. No Place for that. What are you teaching your team? Beat a team when they down, Rub there face in it, Embarass them at all cost. Depending on the age limit these girls still have feelings for the game they love. I have seen team up by more that 10 runs and have the better team and continue to steal and bunt. For What? Because they are the better team and want to rub the other team nose in it. If not why do this then. To send a message? What message-We are better than you? That would be obvious by the score. Each coach has to decide for themselves. Some have no problem scoring at will when the other team is down, I have seen coaches who call the dogs off when the game is out of reach.

A good coach who has the respect of his players will not no trouble explaining them that you do not embarrass another team. That is part of the growing process.

One other thing. A college coach may not complain about a team running up the score but I can gaurentee you that his pitcher will put the pitch in a winning teams earhole if they continue.

I think sometimes coaches are unable to prevent the score from getting out of hand. I saw a game where a team was up 9-0 after 2 innings. They come up to bat in the 3rd and the opposing team's pitcher can not throw a strike. After one time through the batting order there are still no outs and the coach has been batting the whole line up left handed. They had to get the field umpire's attention and tell him they were going to leave the bag early on the next 3 pitches to end the game.

Most of my daughter?s team has been together since a young age, and at that young age they were on the losing side of the mercy rule on several occasions. It was quite a disappointment for our players, but it also helped our coaches and parents recognize what was required to play at the travel ball level. For those players who truly wanted to play and win ? those who persevered through those earlier years and put in the necessary work, are some of our best players today; they do not take great pleasure when we are now the team to mercy rule another team, and they respect the teams that continue to fight regardless of the score ? those fighters will be some of the best players in years to come. Our coaches recognize when our team is dominating another ? those games are not fun for anyone by any means, but they must be played and the sooner it ends, the better.

In most cases I think it's clearly the right decision to go "station to station" once you've scored enough runs that you are just playing until the requisite number of innings for a mercy rule victory have been played. When the tournament is going to use "runs scored" as a last-resort tie-breaker, however, the decision to call off the dogs can come back to haunt you. We almost had that problem last weekend when the rains made it impossible to play off the championship game. But even had we lost the championship because we backed off in an earlier lop-sided game, I would still think that the station to station decision and the final direction to a runner to leave base early were the right thing. The opposing coach later told us thanks and didn't at all interpret the decision as intended to humiliate his team.

This is for SAMMY:

I'm laughing that you brought Tressel into a conversation about whether or not a coach should have his team pull back when the game is way out of hand. Every time the Buckeyes take a 30-point lead into halftime against one of their 1AA early season opponents or some weak MAC school, we have to watch them sleepwalk through the second half running the clock and keeping the score down. 30-0 at the half = 37-10 final score. It cheats the people who pay big money to see a whole football game. And it angers the people who lay the points for big money.

No one is paying to see these softball games and no one is betting on them either-- but I say keep playing hard all the way through. Unless you're playing a team that is so obviously inept that it couldn't possibly beat you, you have to assume that it can happen.

What's worse? Running a team out of the park? Or not doing it when you have the chance and watching them come back to beat you? Just sayin'

And of course playedout, we all know those pre-season Buckeye games are the equivalent of scrimmages allowing Tressel to play the majority of his squad - who otherwise rarely see the field. And those 1AA managers are smiling all the way to the bank with their extra funds. But that's just the way college football works. Regardless, I was alluding to mindset when on the LOSING end - which the Buckeyes have been in a few (not many) surprising games. There's no blame - only reflection and a commitment to get better.

Maybe someone could lobby the softball sanctioning bodies to institute an additional "call off the dogs" rule to keep from permanently damaging the girl's self esteem? When a 10 run lead is achieved, regardless of inning, the "winning" coach would just go shake hands with the "losing" coach? After all, why would a team down THAT many runs even try to win? C'mon now - are we REALLY talking about TRAVEL softball here? This has GOT to be rec. teams! The Bugtussel bandits vs OC Batbusters?? Why the mismatch??

I agree that once your team is up by so many that its impossible for the other team to come back, then go station to station. But, and it happened in Boardman, sometimes things do get out of regardless of the winning coaches intentions. In our first game of our season, we were up 13-0 or 14-0, top of 3rd inning. I kept coaching normally and having the girls play as hard as they could for about 5 more runs. Idea was to get our #4 or #5 pitcher into the game in the 3rd inning, but to make it the last inning. We wanted a cushion to ensure that if we give up a few the game wouldn't be prolonged. Because, the fact is, it is very helpful to end games early and save your players energy, especially from the pitching end, for the next game. But when we got to 18 or 19 it still took another 5 runs of going base to base, no stealing, or bunting, etc to have the other team get out of the inning. I'm not going to ask my girls to turn around and bat lefty, or deliberately get out, or step off a base. Thats ridiculous. As a parent, I got my dd involved in this level because I wanted her to play against her peers and learn how to play hard. As coaches, we coach all our girls to do the same. Usually when the score of a game gets as out of hand as above, its due to a team that really doesn't belong at this level of play. Usually. I'm not trying to sound so elitest, but we all know there are teams like what I'm talking about, and its those teams usually that wind up on the wrong side of these grossly lopsided scores. It happens more and more now because this whole level is becoming more watered down as new teams startup each year. Too many people look at it as all it takes to form a travel team, is to get 11/12 girls, put them into nice uniforms, fill out the roster, and then sign them up for A tournaments. While technically that is all it takes, realistically you should do it only if those group of girls can somewhat compete with the other teams in the tournament. I'm probably going to get killed for saying this but here goes anyways..... true travel teams, in the idea of what travel teams used to be considered that is, very rarely get beaten by 15 or more runs by any other team. Run ruled here and there? Sure. But beaten that badly, multiple times a year? No. Shouldn't happen. Bottom line is, its travel ball. nobody should beat anybody else 23-0. Run rule games can happen even between 2 good travel teams. But surely nowhere near the extreme of 20 runs. For the teams it does happen to, the mercy rule is there to stop it when needed. If our team was getting run ruled consistently, I wouldn't be looking to find someone to complain to about it. Rather I'd be looking to find some B level tournaments to get our girls in until we got better.

BTW, I heard coaches from another team, not the team we were playing, yelling at me in the background about us running up the score. I think that was a little inappropriate on their part, since they had no idea what we were really doing and why we were doing it, but everyone is entitled to their opinion. I felt bad for the other teams girls but don't regret it. We got out of the game in 3 innings, the girls built a ton of confidence right out of the gate, our starting pitcher for that game was available for a few more innings sooner than normal. We surely weren't even thinking about rubbing anybodys face in anything.

Agree krm. I applaud a coach who chooses to take his/her team out to play against tough competition. That's how you get better. That's how you see what you REALLY need to do to compete against the very best. Getting beaten by 15 runs gives a coach some valuable information. Obviously, the team needs to improve to compete at that level, OR make the decision to revert back to a softer schedule. Hopefully, you would choose to work hard and get better!

Our infamous OFC friend, Bigtrain, did just that. The difference being he prepared his team. I think his team took a lot of lumps along the way, but I'm betting it was a learning experience - NOT a whine session about how their opponent was a big bully with no mercy and ran up the score! Asking your opponent to "dumb down" their game WILL NOT make your team any better, and will only hurt you in the long run!

I gotta go with Sammy on this one...from a person who has been on the butt end and the giving end of run rules,

being on the butt end, no, of course it doesn't FEEL great to be on that end, but you learn from it and you move on....it makes you a better person, a better team....now i think i know where some people are going with this thread...constant losing is a sign of poor players/coaches or another reason for the great players on those teams to jump ship....that being said, new teams have to start somewhere....and community teams should be encouraged to venture out in tourneys to face better competition....sometimes you get run ruled, but a good coach will work with those players and try to avoid those situations in the future, and as a coach, you sometimes will have to live and learn from the type of tourneys you attend...maybe a new coach shouldn't play in Wilmington for their first ever tourney, might run into a Doom or a Miami County Blaze and get your butt handed to ya, but if you pick the right tourneys the girls will learn and get better...
last year we faced a few beasts of teams at a tourney in Berliner....in two we were ahead, ended up losing, in one we were out of by the second or third, but we handled ourselves with class, didn't mope about it and worked on what we needed to work on in practice and the next tourney

now, if you are the giver in the run rule relationship, it simply means your team is ready, or you are playing in a tourney you shouldn't be in (but that's really not always the case, and a team will never get better by playing also-rans, so i can't see a coach doing this on a regular basis--call me a romantic, i guess--but it serves no purpose)....still, a team in that situation has plenty to work on, and you cant expect a coach, who wants to win a tourney, and has parents to answer to, to ease up

Like everyone else, we have been part of teams taking the lumps, as well as giving them. Most of the teams we have been with quit stealing, advancing on WP's at some point, and bunt more, or bat left handed, ... or work on their slap technique if that is something they are working on. And yes even the "hey ump, I am leaving early" thing, occasionally.

Two big problems can arise though when you try to this for someone else's benefit:
1. Approximately 50% of the time they get pi$$ed anyways, at the humiliation. So, it is my responsibility now to not only get myself out, but also to do so with an exquisite Oscar winning performace?? I feel bad in those situations, and don't mean to make light of it, but sometimes you just can't win. It's helps to compliment the other team on good plays, to show sportsmanship, and help releive the negativity.
2. There is a school of thought to just plain lay the wood, and get it over with quickly (3 innings I guess) to get off the field, especially in bracket play on Sunday, as mentioned above. The other thing though is losing your rhythm and edge if you are not careful. I have seen more than one team "dumb down" their effort & focus, and slip into a funk for the day thereafter. It is probably best to stay aggressive in effort, but apply those efforts in a less run producing way, give pitcher #4 some time, and work at secondary positions, I guess. If all else fails, ... "hey blue, I'm leaving early" ...

I'm going to ask a few of my son's teachers to flunk some of those mean 4.0 students in his class next year, just so my son will look better. The audacity of those kids to make such good grades! They just need knocked down a couple notches and quit hurting my kid's self esteem!

LOL ;D