Game Situation question

Thanks again for all the answers.

I absolutely want our catcher throwing the ball. In fact, I'm steaming mad if she doesn't.

Let me ask this: If you found an unscratched lottery ticket on the ground with no apparent owner, would you not take it and scratch it off? That runner going to third is providing your defense a free lottery ticket. It costs you nothing to make the attempt.

Here is how I analyze it and how I implored our girls to look at it....

Since it's the last inning, first ask where the tying run is standing. By the time those first two runs have scores and the batter/runner is headed to third, it's 8-3, so the tying run is four batters away sitting in the dugout. Whether that girl headed to third winds up on third or scores, the tying run is still four batters away. Of course, if we get the batter/runner out, the tying run is now five batters away and we have one of our three outs.

Second, understand that the only way that runner headed to third can do us harm is if her team eventually gets the game tied. If her team gets the game tied, four more girls behind her will have scored. If four girls behind her end up scoring, she will have scored easily without having to take any chances and without us having an opportunity to get her out. Because she is not the tying run and the tying run will be no closer to scoring as a result of us throwing to third, she merely represents a free opportunity at an out for us, the defense. It costs us literally nothing, even if our catcher throws the ball over the left field fence. Well, it costs us a possible line drive to third that results in a double play, but that's rare, and if the runner is that dumb to get doubled off down five runs in the last inning....

Anyway, the one argument that people - and a couple of our players - tend to make is the momentum thing. And I argue that if the offense thinks it now has momentum because it's taking chances on the bases that give it no advantage, then that team simply doesn't understand basic math. If the defense feels like it needs to "stop the bleeding" or the circus or whatever, then the defense also doesn't understand the concept of the tying run being no closer to scoring until she is actually running the bases.

A bad throw to third here resulting in the runner scoring gives the offense no momentum, because it puts the offense no closer to getting the game tied than it was as soon as that batter/runner reached base. If the defense feels like things are falling apart or it is giving the offense momentum by making that throw, then someone needs to explain the math to the defense.

Anyway, I hope that makes some sense. One can argue the momentum angle, but I say even that is incorrect because it assumes neither team understands the concept of the tying run. Further, I can't measure momentum. I can measure the number of runs needed to tie the game and the number of outs needed to win the game.

Make the out. The catcher hasn't overthrown anyone yet, and probably has the MOST accurate arm on the team for the throw that is required. MAKE THE OUT as Coach McQueen states. OUTS ARE GOLDEN.. The run means nothing.

If you are afraid to make the play at College level, then they shouldn't be on the field. FINISH THE PLAY. Holding back in February... No Way.

DISCLAIMER:
(This will be a more general statement and does not mean all/every single girl.)

But as I would agree with you on a male player/coach level, Girls I have learned a wired differently. Males tend to see something and think, wow that was cool I wonder if I can do it, Then they will be looking for the chance to try and do it themselves (i.e. that’s were so many redneck jokes come from). Girls not so willing to try it, and soon forget about it.

Males will see another player make a mistake and be thinking I wonder if I can get that player to do it again and then I will _____. Girls might not even notice the other player did something stupid unless it was funny.(i.e. runner on third, batter walks starts running to second and falls down like she is hurt. How many times do we need to tell the girls what to do. Or my favorite pitcher is ahead in the count and she always throws a change up for strike 3, you would think by the end of the game they know what pitch is coming)

If a male is having a hard time doing something, he will ask his friends or teammates to help him fix it, then go outside at home with them and make a game out of it, keep score for bragging rights over those friends and do this for hours. Then they come up with a name for their new game that works on those skills (again that’s were so many redneck jokes come from). .. Girls ask Dad to take them to their ______ private coach for an hour and now think they have fixed the problem...

Males will play ______ sport with their friends or other males, try something new and different (invent) just for the sole purpose to make a fool out the other male up against him, use it over and over, perfect it, then use it in a game..Girls will go play ______ sport with their friends just to have fun.

Males will be watching ____ sport on TV see something a pro did and will want to try and be just like them. (look how many young males in the 90's thought they were Barry Sanders as running backs or how many young Basketball players now think they have skills just like LEBRON) ... Girls don't watch sports on TV (becomes more noticeable when we get married)

What I am getting at is what you see and what you think as a male is almost never what the girls see or think. Males like you said, it does not matter, 4 more runs need to score or it’s over and then will concentrate on the next play.... Girls might be starting to think god I hope we don't lose, or man I am struggling, or I hope it’s not hit to her she'll just make another error, or I'll now throw it easier so she catch it this time.

Girls tend to change their mechanics or strategies to overcome these things, males will tend to concentrate on their mechanics or strategies and step up their game to make up for the other players or just try something to see if it would work after all there is nothing to lose...

I hope our girls would listen to what we preach at workouts, and on the field, and the chaos stops with the first overthrow to first.

I think at 10u, 12u and 14u I'd stop the madness.

At 16u through college... I'm throwing or expect my catcher to do so.

Good stuff Joe.

Joe,

I have a feeling you may have read this book at some point.

The title of the very best book I have read to help me understand the psyche and motivating factors for female athletes is,

"Catch Them Doing Something Good"

In this case, and since at every level of fastpitch I believe the primary job of any coach is to teach them something, I want the catcher to make the throw, it is a pressure packed throw and I want to see what she will do with the opportunity, if she gets the runner great, if she doesn't and throws it away, well then I will probably call time, go out to the mound tell a blonde joke, tell the girls, OK last inning nobody out we are up 8-4, lets focus and finish, any questions?

The really important question is why in the name of Jehovah did you let them start putting the bats away and packing up the equipment on the bench? You didn't even have to tell me that is what happened, I knew as soon as I read the situation!! LOL!

If the coach gets tense and tight in this situation, your girls are going to follow your lead!

Have fun and close the deal, and if not, what a great opportunity to teach your girls about coasting at the end of a game, clearly it will be a lesson to be learned no matter what.

Mathmatically if I have a chance to trade an out for a run and I am up 5, it is an out I want. Now we just need 2 more.

10u/12u Eat it. 14u and up throw it. I'm making a mound visit safe or out.

Cincy Storm: Yes, I did read that book several years ago, good book.

As to the other responses, I would have my 8-U team making the throw to third. An overthrow here costs the defense literally nothing. This is the very definition of free. The only way that run hurts us is if four more girls behind her score. If that happens, that runner will have scored without us ever getting a chance to get her out.

By not making the throw, you have just cost your team an opportunity at one of those golden outs. The opportunity at the out on that runner is gone and is never coming back, unless the runner is clueless enough to take another risk going home down 8-3 in the last inning.

For those who say to end the circus or the chaos, if that runner on third now takes off for home and the ball is in shallow left field, would you just let her have home in order to end the circus? If not, you are saying that the defense is somehow worse off from the runner scoring than being at third in this situation. And if that's the case, well, I don't know what to say.

The better question would be, what in the world is the offense doing taking chances on the bases down 5 or more runs in the last inning.

If you are going to make an error, make an error being Aggressive, Offensively or defensively...

The catcher should be hardwired to make the throw BUT only if the left fielder is in a back up position. The throw would go to third with a chance for the out. If the ball skips away; the left fielder has a chance for the out at home and the catcher has gear on.

Best case; You have two chances for an out with your best players. You get one or the other. (at 3rd or home) The big-mo Shifts back, the other team has its first out AND the bases are empty.
Second Option, the runner scores and bases are empty with no outs. Time to calm down and get back to work.
Worst case, runner on third and distracts your pitcher/team. Get that first out at first and ignore the runner.

In practice this team had better work on good smart throws in pressure situations. There is no reason to string this manny errors together at any age group.

I understand the right brain aspect of this from the defensive point of view. By making a good throw you get an out. If you don't runner is safe, no harm, run will most likely score anyway. Keep defense in an aggressive frame of mind. I understand this.

But as another poster mentioned, these are girls and we think a little goofy at times. I am going to consider the mental aspect of this play. What you just did was give offense HOPE. This is huge!!!!! Catcher has already made one overthrow and missed a throw coming to her. Her mind is going 100mph at this moment, adrenaline is out of control, everyone is yelling at her - chances are she is going to miss the throw - another run, more hope. So in all honesty, unless that runner is only 1/3 the way to 3rd, I would prob be yelling to hold the ball.

JMHO

Other than confidence, what is to lose by throwing the ball to try to get an out.

Joe, with a certain catcher that I personally know, I would announce loudly that "we don't care about the runner on third" then promptly have my catcher pick her butt off of third. Might as well practice that aspect too.

I happen to agree with Joe on the strategy, but I think the bigger lesson to take away from this is talking about it with the team and getting them to critically think about the game. Getting them to talk about the situation in a stress-free environment lets them know what the coach expects and that it is ok to make calculated risks.

Bill:

lol. Actually, when that phrase "we don't care about the runner" is used, that means it's a free out for the defense. In other words, if there is a runner on third in the last inning and the defense is up 8-3, we might yell, just get the out defense, we don't care about the runner on third and that makes sense. But if there is a pickoff opportunity or any opportunity to get that runner out without anyone else running bases, of course we're going to try to get her out. I often tell my catcher in that situation to pick them off all you want, I don't care if you throw it over the left-field fence, as it's a free opportunity.

heat 15: If the offense thinks it now has hope even though the tying run is no closer to scoring than she was before, then that says nothing good about that team's ability to learn game situations. If we are making totally illogical strategic decisions based on the notion that the players have zero understanding of the situation and will gain confidence and excitement from a false sense of hope, then we are now living in bizarro world. The next thing I know, someone will deposit $100,000 Monopoly money into my bank account and I'll feel like i'm $100,000 richer! But if I make decisions on that false premise, I'll find myself in trouble.

cshilt said:

I happen to agree with Joe on the strategy, but I think the bigger lesson to take away from this is talking about it with the team and getting them to critically think about the game. Getting them to talk about the situation in a stress-free environment lets them know what the coach expects and that it is ok to make calculated risks.

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Great point. That's at least 50% of the reason we did this discussion with the team. The other 50% is just getting them to understand late-game situations logically.

"In this case, and since at every level of fastpitch I believe the primary job of any coach is to teach them something, I want the catcher to make the throw, it is a pressure packed throw and I want to see what she will do with the opportunity, if she gets the runner great, if she doesn't and throws it away, well then I will probably call time, go out to the mound tell a blonde joke, tell the girls, OK last inning nobody out we are up 8-4, lets focus and finish, any questions?"



I love the "go out to the mound and tell a blond joke" comment!! I have done this before, serious stress reliever, even if the game is close. Don't wear it out though, they need to remain serious which = FOCUS.

JoeA1010 said:

Cincy Storm: Yes, I did read that book several years ago, good book.

As to the other responses, I would have my 8-U team making the throw to third. An overthrow here costs the defense literally nothing. This is the very definition of free. The only way that run hurts us is if four more girls behind her score. If that happens, that runner will have scored without us ever getting a chance to get her out.

By not making the throw, you have just cost your team an opportunity at one of those golden outs. The opportunity at the out on that runner is gone and is never coming back, unless the runner is clueless enough to take another risk going home down 8-3 in the last inning.

For those who say to end the circus or the chaos, if that runner on third now takes off for home and the ball is in shallow left field, would you just let her have home in order to end the circus? If not, you are saying that the defense is somehow worse off from the runner scoring than being at third in this situation. And if that's the case, well, I don't know what to say.

The better question would be, what in the world is the offense doing taking chances on the bases down 5 or more runs in the last inning.

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I have my 8u team throwing as well - doesn't matter the age. And, I agree - who is coaching third? Hopefully not my dd's coach, oh yeah that's me.

Mike, I saw your daughter's coach do something like this in indoor. I'm sure he wouldn't do it outside during the season though.

The answer to this is obvious to me and majority of the posters seem to have figured it out. Absolutely try to get the out (for all the reasons mentioned above). It's an easy decision really.

Let's up the ante. To challenge the understanding of game situations further, ask the same question but change the score. At 8-6, in my opinion, the answer is the same (as long as there are no outs which is the scenario Joe stated). It might of course change if it's 8-7 and that runner is the tying run. Even then, it's all about calculated risks because there is still a 90% or so chance that the runner at 3B is going to score. On my DD's summer team, I'd want the catcher throwing it b/c if she does overthrow, there is a good chance the LF will nail the runner at home (the 3B coach would be sending her given the penchant for illogical risks shown already).

riots4 said:

Mike, I saw your daughter's coach do something like this in indoor. I'm sure he wouldn't do it outside during the season though.

The answer to this is obvious to me and majority of the posters seem to have figured it out. Absolutely try to get the out (for all the reasons mentioned above). It's an easy decision really.

Let's up the ante. To challenge the understanding of game situations further, ask the same question but change the score. At 8-6, in my opinion, the answer is the same (as long as there are no outs which is the scenario Joe stated). It might of course change if it's 8-7 and that runner is the tying run. Even then, it's all about calculated risks because there is still a 90% or so chance that the runner at 3B is going to score. On my DD's summer team, I'd want the catcher throwing it b/c if she does overthrow, there is a good chance the LF will nail the runner at home (the 3B coach would be sending her given the penchant for illogical risks shown already).

Click to expand...

WOW - You are sooooo right - 1st out at 3rd base in the 1st inning, but I did call myself on it and self-justify that I was playing according to indoor rules as you stated.

I agree, I always make the throw - even if the hitter who is now stretching to third is the tying or possible winning run.

Again the bigger question is will the third base coach risk making the first out at third base in bottom of seventh. I think that depends on the score. If it is truly 8-7 or 8-8 then your team has demonstrated the ability to score runs. I wouldn't risk it. If it were 1-0 or 1-1 then I might take a bigger risk because I may not have a lot of confidence in getting her in from two - we haven't really done it all game.