Pitching and Pitchers Discussion Rest for pitchers

default · Mar 24, 2010

Now that "spring training" for softball is underway and the tournament season is right around the corner, the question is concerning rest for pitchers. Now, I know that this has been talked about numerous times on this forum, but it seems like after the season. I don't know how much teams practice during the transition from indoor pracice to outdoor practice, but ours does change.

1) Do you consider practice with the team a rest day for your dd if her arm it isn't used for pitching?

2) How days rest does your dd need and do you do them back-to-back or wait till the off-season to do that?

3) How many days of work while in the season?

4) During a tourney and your dd doesn't pitch, is that considered a day off?

This is open to all age groups. I have also read that since my dd is 10U as much work as possible but also I have read, get the rest. I believe in 2 days rest a week. Pitch an hour-hour and a half with 1 day devoted to the basics of wrist-snaps, ball in sock, sprint drill (for that explosion), and others. I also believe that Monday is the day off following a tourney which leaves 3 days of practice (which is where I'm trying to figure out her practice schedule so she doesn't think she can practice everyday). She loves to pitch and I tell her rest is just as important as work when done right.
Also, when is the best time to make the transition to the 12" ball for 12U permanently? We do some work, but nothing serious.

I just wanted some others thoughts.

default · Mar 24, 2010

Don't switch to the 12" ball until she is ready to switch to it for good. Going back and forth with the ball and distance will get her all messed up. After her last summer in 10U, my dd pitched 12U fall ball to get a little practice with the 12" ball. She has huge banana hands so the adjustment was minimal.

default · Mar 24, 2010

I agree with Klump. My DD and most pitchers I have been around, did not have much of a problem switching to the 12" ball. my kid had a very smooth transition. We did some drills with the 12" ball in the off season during 10U, but once the 10u season started it was all about the little ball.

default · Mar 24, 2010

brownsfan, As far as your other questions go........Any day my DD doesn't pitch is a day off (from pitching). She is a 12u player, once we hit full stride during the season she pitches almost everyday (she plays games during the week as well). I generally give her Monday off (if anything)..........I think you just have to read your kid. If a team is pitching her every game (or close to it) over a weekend or on Sunday, maybe a day or two off would do some good (mentally and physically). Our team has some flexibility where we hope none of our pitchers have to do that. She generally doesn't need much time off though. When she was a 10u player we pitched probably about 5-6 days a week (including games). But this included league games (I270 league) during the week. Most pitching instructors I have talked to, have recomended practicing 3 times a week at the 10u level. I am sure you will get a variety of opinions on here. It really comes down to reading your kid.

default · Mar 24, 2010

bambam8 said:
brownsfan, As far as your other questions go........Any day my DD doesn't pitch is a day off (from pitching). She is a 12u player, once we hit full stride during the season she pitches almost everyday (she plays games during the week as well). I generally give her Monday off (if anything)..........I think you just have to read your kid. If a team is pitching her every game (or close to it) over a weekend or on Sunday, maybe a day or two off would do some good (mentally and physically). Our team has some flexibility where we hope none of our pitchers have to do that. She generally doesn't need much time off though. When she was a 10u player we pitched probably about 5-6 days a week (including games). But this included league games (I270 league) during the week. Most pitching instructors I have talked to, have recomended practicing 3 times a week at the 10u level. I am sure you will get a variety of opinions on here. It really comes down to reading your kid.

If she needs the rest, she can take time off against us.

default · Mar 25, 2010

[QUOTE/]
1) Do you consider practice with the team a rest day for your dd if her arm it isn't used for pitching?
2) How days rest does your dd need and do you do them back-to-back or wait till the off-season to do that?
3) How many days of work while in the season?
4) During a tourney and your dd doesn't pitch, is that considered a day off?
[/QUOTE]

1. The overhand throw is as taxing as the underhand. If she is fully throwing then it is not a rest.
2. I would recommend at least a day of rest after a full game(s). I do like to see them stretch out and maybe throw some fastballs just to loosen up. (for my 16U about 40 full motion pitches) This rest is absolute if she pitched multiple games over a weekend.
3. This is very dependent on the player. I would monitor her with a very short feedback loop. If she is sore; keep pushing if she has pain then pull back, if it continues pull way back. If her mechanics are great then pain should be nonexistent.
IF SHE HAS PERSISTENT PAIN; STOP. GIVE HER A CHANCE TO RECOVER.
4. This is very dependent on position. If she is also a catcher then she is working just as hard as pitching. If she is in left field and has kept her warmups under control then possibly.

The urban myth that these girls can throw forever is simple untrue and dangerous to your dd's health. She can not add pitches or speed if she has pain. Your/her goal must be to be stronger/better coming out of each season. Pain will prevent that. However, pain is the bodies way to alert you to a problem. DO NOT IGNORE IT.

default · Mar 25, 2010

If you are serious about your DD's athletic ability, and she has the desire to advance beyond rec. ball, and possibly to college, I would urge you to find a physician who specializes in sports medicine. Have this physician teach your DD how to recognize the difference between "soreness" and "serious pain". You cannot expect kids to know the difference.

Then she needs to be taught by a qualified sports trainer the PROPER methods of strength building - and NOT just from an old "football buddy". A certain amount of "soreness" is a normal part of strength building, AND pitching. As she progresses she will feel soreness in muscles she hasn't used often, like in her forearm in throwing "movement pitches" - screwball, curve, etc. She should be "feeling it" in her legs also after a long tournament weekend, or I'd investigate why she isn't using her legs. She should be feeling "tired all over" - not just in her pitching arm.

Rest for fastpitch pitchers is different than baseball. Baseball is specifically about the shoulder/arm, and there are well documented regimens to follow. For your daughter, she needs to "get in tune" with what her body is telling her starting early in her pitching career. EVERY KID IS DIFFERENT! Unlike baseball, a fastpitch pitcher may be able to pitch 2 - 3 full games in one day without any lingering effects, but another pitcher may only go one game before running out of gas.

If your DD is having PAIN, not only should she immediately stop, but she should find the reason for the pain BEFORE continuing! Otherwise, she may be doing long term damage. Is it her mechanics? Overuse? Has she pulled a tendon/ligament? Sometimes rest will cure it, sometimes it's something more serious.

Here's to a healthy pitching career for your DD!!!

default · Mar 25, 2010

This maybe something to think real hard about considering all the studies that have been done!

Also do not forget about the ACL as it is an accident waiting to happen especially for the females!

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1941294/
Shoulder injuries are another primary area of preventive concern for collegiate softball players. Although the results do not specify the number of shoulder injuries that can be categorized as chronic or overuse, shoulder strains and shoulder tendinitis were common chronic/overuse injuries that accounted for almost 10% of practice injuries ( Table 5). Furthermore, 5.5% of practice injuries resulting in 10+ days of activity time loss were attributable to shoulder tendinitis ( Table 6). A common misconception is that the windmill motion of softball pitching creates less stress on the arm than the overhead motion of baseball pitching does. However, the degree of shoulder distraction stress on elite softball pitchers during the 1996 Olympic Games averaged 80% ? 22% of their body weight (range = 50% to 149%), which is comparable to that of professional baseball players (mean = 108% ? 16% body weight, range = 83% to 139% body weight) and may put softball pitchers at risk for overuse injury. 14, 15

When 181 NCAA female pitchers were surveyed, 25% of their injuries were categorized as chronic/overuse shoulder injuries. 6

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15320672
"Yeah just give them one day off and it is OK to pitch 3 or 4 games in a row or day and who cares how many warm up pitches they throw....they are young!" Howard

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15320672

Pitch counts need to be more of a priority for coaches, pitchers, and certified athletic trainers, with an emphasis on the quality versus the quantity of pitches during practice. 6 Furthermore, position-specific interval throwing programs have been designed based on NCAA softball game data, field dimensions, common softball injuries, and general tissue-healing concepts. 16 These programs are not only important for rehabilitation but also may be a beneficial component of the conditioning regimens for all position players. 16

Sammy do you have another walking Taco we can have????????????????:lmao:

default · Mar 25, 2010

H - I'm going to start a poll to find the absolute BEST one!! Hopefully if there's a softball game going on, it won't distract from the walking tacos...

P.S. - Good point about warm-up pitches - especially in cold weather. Cold muscles with no pre-stretching is an injury waiting to happen. Mom & Dads - DON'T DEPEND ON YOUR DD'S TEAM COACH TO KNOW WHAT'S GOOD FOR YOUR DD!! Take responsibility for your DD's health, and KNOW what's good for her. After all, she's no good to her team if she's on the disabled list!

default · Mar 25, 2010

Sammy said:
Rest for fastpitch pitchers is different than baseball. Baseball is specifically about the shoulder/arm, and there are well documented regimens to follow. For your daughter, she needs to "get in tune" with what her body is telling her starting early in her pitching career. EVERY KID IS DIFFERENT! Unlike baseball, a fastpitch pitcher may be able to pitch 2 - 3 full games in one day without any lingering effects, but another pitcher may only go one game before running out of gas.

Sammy;
There isn't a pitcher that can throw 2 or 3 games (21 innings or about 400 pitches) and come back and throw another 2 or 3, do it again without any lingering negative effects and make any improvement in her speed, technique or quality. She will become weaker and at some point technique will falter. Finally she will strain some muscle or joint that will put her out of the game. Unfortunately we are so blind by past practices that most coaches will continue to play her even when they know it is not in her best interests. I have even seen 'Dad' insist that his dd can pitch when she can't bend over to pick up the ball. If she was a boy I'd be having my head handed to me on a platter.

I would like to eliminate the thought that great pitching requires excessive innings. The thought is that a kid can't cut it they don't throw and throw and throw some more. A kid that is uninjured as a high school junior has a better chance of pitching in college than one that won a trophy in East Nowhere, pitched 6 complete games as a 14U and now has back problems.

This is Newton's Law and a price must be paid for this completely unnatural violent underhand motion; it is not free. A lot more rest is required for recovery than we currently allow and a lot more rest than that if any improvements are to be made in speed, control and technique.

You are right that each kid is different in regards to their physical stress level but I disagree that they are so much different from a baseball pitcher. However, baseball has much better research and it should be paid attention to as guide until softball caches up. In the meantime, all of us, stop hurting these pitchers. It is unfair to them and prevents them from truly developing their their to ultimate potential.

default · Mar 25, 2010

The debate will go back in forth on who can pitch how many/how long etc. Best advice is to make sure these athletes are fit, both cardio and muscle tone/development. Hopefully they have a long healthy future in front of them.

default · Mar 25, 2010

Building on Hitter's comments: On our 16U travel team, we have had four girls out(since we got together in August), three for extended periods, due to shoulder injuries. 2 pitch, 2 don't. I don't know if girls are more susceptible than boys, but that is a lot more lost time than the comparable boys team up here is having( and don't get me started on knee problems)....

default · Mar 25, 2010

LCTigerdad said:
Building on Hitter's comments: On our 16U travel team, we have had four girls out(since we got together in August), three for extended periods, due to shoulder injuries. 2 pitch, 2 don't. I don't know if girls are more susceptible than boys, but that is a lot more lost time than the comparable boys team up here is having( and don't get me started on knee problems)....

In my opinion....Most male coaches do not understand how the female functions as to teaching how to shift their weight and this is why they throw like girls verses athletes.

This was the reason why in 2004 we changed the clinic format to teach throwing first verses hitting and we stopped the shot gun start approach and had everyone working the same drills at the same times and we found it has worked much better!

You keep hearing defense wins games so why don't they teach them how to throw properly?

We were just at a clinic in Pittsburgh and worked with 40 coaches and 160 plus kids and they were all eager to learn and saw the differences in a short amount of time....they wanted to learn!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

As to the ACL issues....most topics are more important than their daughters health or you would see more discussion on the topic, so it must not be important until after it happens to them would be my guess.

A lot of my information comes from a nurse practitioner who has access to the medical data and has resources at Children's Hospital in Cincinnati as she can consult with a certified trainer if I have issues with our kids and I work with her daughter also.

Some times it is who you know! :lmao:

default · Mar 25, 2010

There isn't a pitcher that can throw 2 or 3 games (21 innings or about 400 pitches) and come back and throw another 2 or 3, do it again without any lingering negative effects and make any improvement in her speed, technique or quality. She will become weaker and at some point technique will falter. Finally she will strain some muscle or joint that will put her out of the game. Unfortunately we are so blind by past practices that most coaches will continue to play her even when they know it is not in her best interests. I have even seen 'Dad' insist that his dd can pitch when she can't bend over to pick up the ball. If she was a boy I'd be having my head handed to me on a platter.

Nowhere did I say that after pitching 3 games (in one day) could a pitcher come back to pitch again that day! That would be insanity, and any coach (or parent) that lets that happen should have their head examined!! Parents who abuse their kids by thinking it will "harm their playing time" (I see it all the time in HS baseball) should be taken out and thrashed! How shortsighted can some parents be?? The long-term damage is not worth the immediate gratification.

What I DID say was that there are kids who COULD pitch 3 games in one day (110 - 115 pitches per game with a decent break in between, possibly 350 pitches in one day). The next day should involve NO THROWING - but SHOULD involve cardio - (play basketball, sprints, jog, etc.) I'm referring to 16u and up kids who've focused on conditioning, and have excellent mechanics. Is that excessive? For some kids, YES! I would NOT suggest any kid younger than 16 attempt that. BTW, 400 pitches in 21 innings?? WOW! I'd consider a relief pitcher if the per batter pitch count started climbing. That's approaching a 4 GAME PITCH COUNT! And that's far too many for any kid!!

As in most physical activities, there is no cookie cutter - one size fits all - answer. As an example, if I attempted the physical activities my DD is capable of (over 30 years difference in age), I guarantee you I would not be able to get out of bed the next morning, and probably would be seeing my doctor for pain pills!! To be sure, medical experts will err on the safe side, which I totally agree with. They have to take "averages", which works in MOST situations. Lastly - I will NEVER disagree with a physicians recommendations. If our doctor issued an order for my kids to avoid a certain activity, there's no questions asked.

default · Mar 26, 2010

There isn't a pitcher that can throw 2 or 3 games (21 innings or about 400 pitches)

. That's close to 20 pitches an inning. To me 15 per inning is more acceptable

default · Mar 26, 2010

Sammy; I'm glad you clarified your comments. Your warnings are right on. I am very concerned that we allow/demand to much of our players and encourage practices that ultimately cause our girls injuries.

I meant to say that someone might be able to throw 3 games but not without rest and recovery. To expect the typical pitcher to do this week in and week out is clearly a recipe for disaster.

If you do a pitch count of games you will find that 20 pitches an inning as an average is not outlandish. Granted there are some 5 pitch innings but if you have a girl that is striking out batters at a reasonable rate, she will also walk a few, mix in a few foul balls, a few hits, a couple of errors - 20 isn't so outlandish. That is only 4 batters to a full count per inning. If your pitcher only faces 30 batters a game that would be an average of only 4.5 pitches per batter. 15 per inning maybe more acceptable but not in this reality.

A team that bats through the order at the younger ages or a stud pitcher that is going after her no-hitter will easily approach and surpass 130 pitches per game. Toss in a few pitches between innings; 50+ warmup pitches and the 130 pitches per game is way low.

Go over your score books and check it out. Maybe your pitchers are significantly more efficient than mine. Maybe they generate those great quick ground ball outs; but I suspect we don't realize how much work an average pitcher does during a typical game.

default · Mar 27, 2010

If your pitcher is consistently averaging more than 15 pitches per inning, I would be VERY concerned. I would look at two possibilities: 1) She is competing at a level that is far above her current skill level, or 2) She is not working hard enough at her craft. That is NOT meant to be a "slam" or demeaning remark, but rather something to look at for her improvement.

Averaging 20 pitches per inning, for a total of 140 pitches per game plus a good warm-up (mix of throwing - see link) is excessive for a youth fastpitch pitcher. Here's where a parent needs to educate themselves about the health risks associated with overuse injuries. For our DD at 12u, we considered 100 game pitches a good upper target number. Some games would go a little more, some a little less. A typical tournament weekend she would pitch a Friday game, two on Saturday, then "as needed" on Sunday. Mondays were usually "off days" for rest, then light throwing and lessons the rest of the week. We always monitored "soreness and pain" and took any hints of that as very serious.

I think the key in pitching is to focus heavily on quality over quantity. Lots of game pitches is NEVER a good thing. Every pitch gives the batter another chance, and every pitch also wears on the pitcher. If your DD is not a "strikeout" pitcher, she needs to have confidence in her fielders. A groundout is an out - maybe less dramatic - but STILL an out.

Although aimed at collegiate level players, this study gives some good in-depth statistics:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC164345/

default · Mar 27, 2010

Good stuff here. I may look into the sports medicine person for my daughter this summer.

default · Mar 28, 2010

I would love to see maximum innings per week, instituted into the HS games and you would see a total shift in the stregnth of many programs that would then have to focus on teaching their kids fielding techniques vs. relying soley on a stud pitcher... yeah yeah, there are those that will say Podunk City can only get one pitcher on the roster, well I guess you better start showing some other players to learn.... How many schools out there throw their stud in every non conference game as well? I love reading the paper results on those games...

default · Mar 28, 2010

Agree that 15 pitches per inning is more common place in well pitched games. My DD's goal was always less than 100 pitches per game in high school. In 550+ innings over her high school career, she averaged about 13.5 pitches per inning. That of course didn't include warm-up pitches before the game or between innings. But to this day in college, she only throws 2 warm-up pitches between innings partially to keep her count down, since she sometimes pitches in both games of doubleheaders. But she can't do that day after today without causing some problems ... and those problems might not just be arm-related (i.e., legs, back).

Pitching and Pitchers Discussion Rest for pitchers

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