When did the responsibility of softball coaches change?

coachjwb · Sep 9, 2014

I will say up front that this is a bit tongue in cheek, but when did the responsibility of softball coaches change from the success of the team to that of the individual players? I am going to lead a discussion about this topic tonight on the TSZ Radio Show.

This topic was actually prompted by someone asking us to talk about it on the Radio Show strictly as it relates to high school coaches and, while there admittedly are some differences, I thought it would be a good topic to talk about as it relates to travel ball as well. It used to be I think that the responsibility of most coaches was for their teams to win. I think most people would still say that's the case today for high school but, if so, why are there so many parents that seem to care more about their DD's playing time than trusting the coach to do what is best for the team? Do we expect something different from our high school softball coaches than we do our football coaches? It's easy to say that a coach should care most about his or her players getting college scholarships, but is that really their responsibility? Isn't it true that the more success a high school team has that the more noticed their players are going to be?

But now let's talk about travel ball coaches ... yes, there are teams out there who have the ability and whose sole mission is to showcase their players, but is that the mission of all travel teams, and should it be? At what age does that become the mission? Do some people think that all high school aged teams are really showcase teams, or should they perhaps be relaxing a little and just let their DD's enjoy playing?

I welcome any discussion here, but I also welcome any and all to join us for a discussion tonight on the TSZ Radio Show.

ApogeeDemon · Sep 9, 2014

huh? Don't coaches do what they feel is best? If you want to follow protocol, then for a high school coach, if it's not in the contract, then you can't hold them responsible. AD's also can't evaluate coaches based on something not in the contract.

coachjwb · Sep 9, 2014

Apogee ... the question is what do/should parents think is the coaches' primary responsibility? Is it possible that some high school parents think their coaches' main responsibility is to either play their DD or to get her recruited?

travelinmom · Sep 9, 2014

The goal should be winning games. That would encompass getting all the individuals to work together as a team, knowing ALL players' strengths/weaknesses, how to play them most effectively, and understanding how to best motivate each player to achieve maximum performance.
Unfortunately, society has become blind to the team concept except as it applies to games like football. Why are individual player stats tracked to the point of being ridiculous? Except for the purpose knowing when to use players to win, who cares how many times little Fiona hits doubles on a sunny day as opposed to a cloudy day?
As far as helping girls get recruited, coaches should provide their contact information and advise girls on the recruiting process. Not something our DD ever got from high school coaches but her travel coaches have always been ready to support her in whatever way she needed them. She basically did all the work herself to get to college play.
Perhaps the next coach training opportunity should be "How to Manage Challenging Parents".

ApogeeDemon · Sep 9, 2014

travelinmom said:
The goal should be winning games. That would encompass getting all the individuals to work together as a team, knowing ALL players' strengths/weaknesses, how to play them most effectively, and understanding how to best motivate each player to achieve maximum performance.
Unfortunately, society has become blind to the team concept except as it applies to games like football. Why are individual player stats tracked to the point of being ridiculous? Except for the purpose knowing when to use players to win, who cares how many times little Fiona hits doubles on a sunny day as opposed to a cloudy day?
As far as helping girls get recruited, coaches should provide their contact information and advise girls on the recruiting process. Not something our DD ever got from high school coaches but her travel coaches have always been ready to support her in whatever way she needed them. She basically did all the work herself to get to college play.
Perhaps the next coach training opportunity should be "How to Manage Challenging Parents".

I agree with you

brownsfan · Sep 9, 2014

I think the landscape starting changing a few years ago when Ohio girls started leaving the state to play at the high levels. There the coaches not only focused on winning, but getting the girls recruited as well as NCAA regulations don't allow contact and that was the loophole. In order to keep girls in the state, teams/orgs starting to adapt to top orgs outside the state.

coachjwb · Nov 11, 2014

Bumping this back up ... would like to see if there's more discussion on this ...

Louuuuu · Nov 12, 2014

travelinmom said:
The goal should be winning games....

... by teaching the players.

I think that two "goals" are weighted proportionately by the age groups. Coaches of younger teams need to be teachers. If wins come along, that's just icing on the cake.
Older age groups can work on winning - because they've developed skills through proper coaching.

Be a good player on a winning team, and the "recruiting" falls into place easier.

I have no place for "Just Win, Baby".

wow · Nov 12, 2014

Tough topic for sure. Each level of travel ball is different and coaches priorities change as the girls develop. In the younger years (10-12u) its about fundamentals and those basic skills lead to wins. The best coached and taught kids, along with athletic ability, usually win at the younger ages. Those coaches have their work cut out in teaching how the game is played and the skills to compete at the highest level. Playing time is about being on the right team. As the girls get older, 14U plus, its less and less about wins and loss and more about college exposure. No one cares who beat who when you are looking to get a college coach to see you play. The later years of fastpitch are about getting on the best teams where the coaches and organization are getting you in front of colleges and best turneys. No one cares about how many trophies you have, unless you can trade those in for some college scholarship money? Older kids should already have basic skills and if the organization picked up talent, then the wins will come, because the kids are the best at their craft. The goal should always be to win, HOWEVER its not the only goal. I just feel like the priorities change at each level.

As far as high school ball, its just simply not the same, for obvious reasons. Coaches here are really all over the board. Some are really good and some not so much. The point here is unless you have a upper class of travel kids, or part of a elite high school program, it very hard to put 9 girls on the field from the same school.

Would like to hear from some organizational directors on this one.

DanMaz · Nov 12, 2014

coachjwb said:
Apogee ... the question is what do/should parents think is the coaches' primary responsibility? Is it possible that some high school parents think their coaches' main responsibility is to either play their DD or to get her recruited?

agree with a lot of what wow mentioned..... especially that the age will dictate what the teams / coaches are doing.

I think first we parents need to be realistic with our DD's skills and realize what type of student athlete she is. (D1 -D2-D3) then once you have determined this it should be easier to focus on the schools and develop a plan for being seen by coaches. parents should expect help from travel ball coaches BUT do not think they are going to do it all for you. Its not magic! They will give you the tools.... you have to do the work. Do not think just because you attend a showcase event that coaches will "find" you or come running to watch you play if you have done nothing in order to get them to see your DD. Comparing HS to travel for recruiting purposes is like comparing apples to oranges. just my 2 cents.

OH and seriously get those grades up!!! IF your grades stink...the less doors are open for your DD. The better the grades, the more school are available to the student athlete. that's why STUDENT comes before ATHLETE: student athlete.

coachjwb · Nov 12, 2014

So do people feel differently about the responsibility of a high school football coach vs. softball coach?

brownsfan · Nov 12, 2014

coachjwb said:
So do people feel differently about the responsibility of a high school football coach vs. softball coach?

Apples to oranges in this scenario. Football is a revenue generating sport regardless if high school or not. In football you have upto 5 offensive and 5 defensive coaches not including the coordinators. So the emphsis of getting a high school kid looked at by the head coach is not as great. The only times he'll be needed is the final meetings. But of course, I'm no football coach and going off an assumption. But the softball coach is either him/herself and the two asst coaches. They have to have a greater responsiblity in getting the kids recruited. A parent can't do it.

DanMaz · Nov 12, 2014

coach ; there is probably more pressure on the football coach because there is no football showcase tournaments and they usually don't play summer football tourneys like travel softball does. so they have a smaller window of opportunity to be seen.

CarMad · Nov 12, 2014

wow said:
Tough topic for sure. Each level of travel ball is different and coaches priorities change as the girls develop. In the younger years (10-12u) its about fundamentals and those basic skills lead to wins. The best coached and taught kids, along with athletic ability, usually win at the younger ages. Those coaches have their work cut out in teaching how the game is played and the skills to compete at the highest level. Playing time is about being on the right team. As the girls get older, 14U plus, its less and less about wins and loss and more about college exposure. No one cares who beat who when you are looking to get a college coach to see you play. The later years of fastpitch are about getting on the best teams where the coaches and organization are getting you in front of colleges and best turneys. No one cares about how many trophies you have, unless you can trade those in for some college scholarship money? Older kids should already have basic skills and if the organization picked up talent, then the wins will come, because the kids are the best at their craft. The goal should always be to win, HOWEVER its not the only goal. I just feel like the priorities change at each level.

As far as high school ball, its just simply not the same, for obvious reasons. Coaches here are really all over the board. Some are really good and some not so much. The point here is unless you have a upper class of travel kids, or part of a elite high school program, it very hard to put 9 girls on the field from the same school.

Would like to hear from some organizational directors on this one.

The dilemma here is if your not on a team that wins and wins in the bigger tournaments on a regular basis you can't get into the show cases! And the real problem is it starts young. How does an average 12u team get into stingrays? The teams that get in early to these type of events probably get better faster as they are playing the best teams and have a better chance of being invited back if they.......Win (maybe not the whole event but fair well). If you don't qualify for PGF or ASAUSA at the older ages how are you going to get seen? Most of the big events are Invite only. An orgs. reputation of winning gets them in and seen. I think.

Louuuuu · Nov 12, 2014

brownsfan said:
They have to have a greater responsiblity in getting the kids recruited. A parent can't do it.

No coach - in any sport - has the "responsibility" of getting a kid recruited. Their duty is to develop players and put a winning team on the field. A coaches' work in getting a player noticed by a college is appreciated, but the responsibility is on the player/parents.

SMc4SMc · Nov 12, 2014

coachjwb.... Great post, a credit to you and those whom helped develop it. It's a multilayered post where one question has the strength to generate an independent discussion.

With that said... possibly since Curt Flood, The Shark type sports agent, recruiting services, and intellectual property, or for sports, branding the shift of focus, blame, and/or success has grown (maybe mutated) parallel to the information age from standard media- newspapers, radio, and television to the lightning quick social format. Each progression seemingly became more "Me" centered and seemingly tons have bought-in and pushed the "Me first".

I guess everything has changed. And possibly an affirmation to the shift may be no more wrong or right to its condemnation.
... Still great post coachjwb et al.

MD 20/20 · Nov 12, 2014

There are all sorts of programs/organizations out there. Now with open enrollment if it means that much to you, you can change your childs situation. Unfortunately, in most cases, Softball is a non-revenue generating sport. Thus, as long as there is no bad press coming out of the program, most coaches are rubber-stamp renewed on their contracts. Many coaches are like some HS players (pick their stuff up in Feb and drop it in May) I think its up to parents to try to seek out the parents of older players in their child's skill range to seek advise/opinion. I do agree with DanMaz that as parents we do need to try to look at our children and their abilities as they truly are. A Div 1 athlete is something very special. You can't describe it but you know it when you see it. "MOST" kids playing travel ball in this area are div 2, 3 or really nice HS players. It does mom and dad no good to go ask the parents of the player who went SEC about their process when their DD is NAIA. That process is apples to oranges as well. My advise......Have a 5 min conversation with your coach, HS or travel. You will know within that 5 min weather they will be helping or not.

tjsmize3 · Nov 12, 2014

wow said:
Tough topic for sure. Each level of travel ball is different and coaches priorities change as the girls develop....

Good stuff wow! I think the long-term success of any team in any sport boils down to that team's ability to manage the following: (1) winning, (2) teaching fundamentals of the game, (3) networking, (4) managing a group of people with diverse personalities and view points. As the head coach, clearly it is your responsibility to make sure all of this is happening seamlessly either by doing these things yourself, delegating the responsibility, or a combination of the two. How many times have you seen some very talented teams disintegrate because while they were fundamentally sound and won a lot of games, they couldn't find success with items 3 and 4? Likewise, some teams start off strong but don't really do well at the older age groups because no one helped to develop their player's skills beyond 12u. You can get by with superior pure athletic talent early on, but if your girls haven't fixed many of their flaws by 14-18u the better teams find ways to exploit those flaws and beat you even when you may have some better "athletes" playing on your side. Just as wow suggests, as teams progress through the age ranks the focus and order of these priorities change to be sure, but all 4 areas ALWAYS need to be managed well in order to to succeed. In my opinion, the best organizations/teams have people in leadership positions (i.e. coaching/support staff) who not only recognize the importance of these 4 areas, but enjoy and show an aptitude for doing them well.

coachjwb · Nov 12, 2014

Let me be clear by stating that I am not suggesting that youth coaches should only care about winning. In fact, I think their primary responsibility is to teach their players how to be great team players, and how to win and lose with class. Good coaches also train their athletes to become better players to help them contribute to the team's success. Good coaches also do whatever they can WITHIN THE GOALS OF THE TEAM to help their players go on to the next level. But I take issue with parents who think (or seem to think) that a coach's #1 goal is to play their kids and help them get scholarships. As Lou said, this is clearly the responsibility of the players and their parents, particularly at a high school level. Now there are travel teams who promote themselves as being showcase teams and whose stated #1 goal is their players going on to play in college, and that's wonderful. But I think it's critical to understand the goals of the teams your kids play on, and differentiate your expectations based on this. It can get a little fuzzy with some travel teams, but I have to shake my head when some parents seem to expect high school softball coaches to do anything other than what they think is best for the team. I don't think it makes any difference that high school football is able to charge admission to attend their games ... the goals of a high school football college and a high school softball coach should be essentially identical, and a high school softball coach shouldn't put up with parents whose agendas are the promotion of their individual daughters.

brownsfan · Nov 12, 2014

Louuuuu said:
No coach - in any sport - has the "responsibility" of getting a kid recruited. Their duty is to develop players and put a winning team on the field. A coaches' work in getting a player noticed by a college is appreciated, but the responsibility is on the player/parents.

Not neccassarily true (I can NEVER spell this word correctly). Yes, it is the responsibility of the child to email, call, write letters to college coaches. But unfortuantely, a parent cannot call on their child's behalf, all they can do is take them to camps and to tournaments. That responsibility now has fallen on the travel coach. Some orgs have recruiting coordinators, but when they're not around-the the coach must make the rounds in between games. If they don't, then a girls chances of being looked at are on a wing and a prayer.

When did the responsibility of softball coaches change?

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