10 minutes of rain

How can a 10 minute storm cause a cancelled tourney. Td obviously wants a money grab. Not going to maple leaf next year. So sad to see 300 girls waiting to play ball on playable fields going home. Ugh.

where you at

Depending on their age group, they were either in Streetsboro or Aurora.

Yes we were at the streetsboro location. To add insult to injury the first and second places were teams from the same side of the bracket. I don't know how they decided that. Ugh again.

I agree this tournament was mishandled from the start of Sunday morning. Since there was a delay in the start of bracket play TD should have eliminated the silver bracket and seeded everyone into one bracket from pool play. The tournament winners were based off of pool play record with RA as the tie breaker.

Same thing at valley extreme. The issue here was they have tarps! Everyone knew it was coming, and instead of looking at the radar and making the necessary adjustments they decided to let it rain and do coin flips.

Second year in a row they did this. When will TD take a a look at the forecast and keep one eye on the radar on weather.com? I mean I get it no one wants weather to interrupt a turney or control weather, but gotta at least try and make adjustments so that there is a effort to continue. Feels like some, once the reach their GG, the effort to play it out goes way down.

And please use the criteria for pool play for elimination. W/l, head to head, RA, RD, RS, runners to 1, 2, 3, pick a color, number 1-10, rock paper scissors.. But coin flips?

Aurora (16u) got to the championship game but that downpour did ruin the field. I was surprised we got started but almost made it.

So were there teams that won their first elimination game today, and winners were based off pool play? I myself wasn't impressed either. Fields were poorly lined. Batters box was non-existent to start second pool game. Home plate was completely crooked, and there was an 18 inch rubber. Watched a pitcher double-clutch an entire inning, approached the umpire to address in between innings. He let her continue almost the entire next inning before addressing it. Poor officiating. The positives were plenty of warm up area, and clean bathrooms.

I will say that, if you know Bob at all, you would know that he runs tourneys for the love of the game. He doesn't have a team, his kids are grown. And He CERTAINLY does not need the money...lol.

crystlemc said:

I will say that, if you know Bob at all, you would know that he runs tourneys for the love of the game. He doesn't have a team, his kids are grown. And He CERTAINLY does not need the money...lol.

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Love the game or not, this was POORLY ran. People drove hours and spent money to be sent home on a coin flip when the fields were still able to be played on? Weather can't be controlled, but the other issues with this tournament can. Very, very disappointing. I respect the difficulties of a TD, but these things are unexcusable.

I bet if his kids were in the tourney he would have continued to play. Funny the 300-400 families waiting to play after the rain must have a little more love of the game.

I can honestly say, you are going to be disappointed a lot during your kid's TB career if you're that fired up about a rainout. It happens. I know it's frustrating. I've been there more than once. But none of us know if there were other circumstances in any rainout we've experienced. Some parks have contracts that only their employees can make that call, not the TD. There are parks that don't allow anyone but their employees to work on the fields. For instance, one rainout we had a couple years ago was at a park where only their employees could work the fields. They had 7-8 fields running, but only 2 employees. So the park owner called for the cancellation. There's nothing a TD can do about that. Before you hang the TD, consider that maybe his hands were tied. I know at Sunny Lake, the city does all the field work. They don't allow teams or TD to do it. At least they didn't used to. I don't know about Streetsboro.

Caines03 said:

Same thing at valley extreme. The issue here was they have tarps! Everyone knew it was coming, and instead of looking at the radar and making the necessary adjustments they decided to let it rain and do coin flips.

Second year in a row they did this. When will TD take a a look at the forecast and keep one eye on the radar on weather.com? I mean I get it no one wants weather to interrupt a turney or control weather, but gotta at least try and make adjustments so that there is a effort to continue. Feels like some, once the reach their GG, the effort to play it out goes way down.

And please use the criteria for pool play for elimination. W/l, head to head, RA, RD, RS, runners to 1, 2, 3, pick a color, number 1-10, rock paper scissors.. But coin flips?

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If the fields were already wet, tarping it won't do any good. I do, however, hate the coin flip for determination. Did either tournament state coin flip in case of rainout in their "guideline/rule" sheet?

Caines03 said:

Same thing at valley extreme. The issue here was they have tarps! Everyone knew it was coming, and instead of looking at the radar and making the necessary adjustments they decided to let it rain and do coin flips.

Second year in a row they did this. When will TD take a a look at the forecast and keep one eye on the radar on weather.com? I mean I get it no one wants weather to interrupt a turney or control weather, but gotta at least try and make adjustments so that there is a effort to continue. Feels like some, once the reach their GG, the effort to play it out goes way down.

And please use the criteria for pool play for elimination. W/l, head to head, RA, RD, RS, runners to 1, 2, 3, pick a color, number 1-10, rock paper scissors.. But coin flips?

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This would be for an ASA event, not PGF specific however:

From page 43 and 44 of the ASA rule book:

Incomplete Tournament.

In the event a national qualifier, regional, territorial qualifier or national championship final tournament cannot be completed within the scheduled time frame the following procedures shall be used to break ties among teams in the same spot in the bracket.
a. Head to head competition.
b. The team that advanced the farthest in the winner?s bracket.
c. Won-loss records, except among undefeated teams.
d. If only two teams are tied for a position and have played each other, the winner of that game.

EXCEPTION: If there are only two teams remaining and each team has one loss, the championship must be played or the teams shall be declared co-champions. In the case of the ASA Eastern / Northern /Southern / Western National Championship Finals, Co-Champions will not be declared.

If this occurs, the tiebreaker in Article 310 ( I )( 02 ) ( e, f and g ) of this Code followed in order will be used to determine the team advancing to the USA National Championship Series.
e. The teams shall be ranked according to the fewest runs allowed pregame played.
f. If a tie still exists, the teams shall be ranked according to the most runs scored per game played.
g. If a tie still exits, by a coin toss.

NOTE: Only bracket play games should be used in determining the official order of finish for National Championship Finals, pool play games should not be used.

The issue I have with the TD handling the Maple Leaf is that he already knew he lost 3 fields from the prior nights rain. Instead of having a plan to remove the silver and gold brackets and combine into one he elected to keep both brackets. Everyone knew there was a chance of storms all day Sunday. Games began around 10:00 am and for the next 3 hours no teams were eliminated because the losing teams were moved to the silver bracket. Now mind you this silver bracket was not a double elimination bracket it was just for fun, the 2 brackets never merged into one. So now you have fields being taken up playing games that mean nothing. All age groups could have finished prior to the rain hitting around 4:00 if this format would have been used. My suggestion would have been he should of held a coaches meeting to discuss. I am sure most teams would have agreed to go into one bracket which would have still given everyone at least 4 games.

crystlemc said:

If the fields were already wet, tarping it won't do any good. I do, however, hate the coin flip for determination. Did either tournament state coin flip in case of rainout in their "guideline/rule" sheet?

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They were dry as a bone before the rain.

coachtomv said:

This would be for an ASA event, not PGF specific however:

From page 43 and 44 of the ASA rule book:

Incomplete Tournament.

In the event a national qualifier, regional, territorial qualifier or national championship final tournament cannot be completed within the scheduled time frame the following procedures shall be used to break ties among teams in the same spot in the bracket.
a. Head to head competition.
b. The team that advanced the farthest in the winner?s bracket.
c. Won-loss records, except among undefeated teams.
d. If only two teams are tied for a position and have played each other, the winner of that game.

EXCEPTION: If there are only two teams remaining and each team has one loss, the championship must be played or the teams shall be declared co-champions. In the case of the ASA Eastern / Northern /Southern / Western National Championship Finals, Co-Champions will not be declared.

If this occurs, the tiebreaker in Article 310 ( I )( 02 ) ( e, f and g ) of this Code followed in order will be used to determine the team advancing to the USA National Championship Series.
e. The teams shall be ranked according to the fewest runs allowed pregame played.
f. If a tie still exists, the teams shall be ranked according to the most runs scored per game played.
g. If a tie still exits, by a coin toss.

NOTE: Only bracket play games should be used in determining the official order of finish for National Championship Finals, pool play games should not be used.

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Thanks Tom. That was my point. We went straight to the coin flip.

crystlemc said:

I can honestly say, you are going to be disappointed a lot during your kid's TB career if you're that fired up about a rainout. It happens. I know it's frustrating. I've been there more than once. But none of us know if there were other circumstances in any rainout we've experienced. Some parks have contracts that only their employees can make that call, not the TD. There are parks that don't allow anyone but their employees to work on the fields. For instance, one rainout we had a couple years ago was at a park where only their employees could work the fields. They had 7-8 fields running, but only 2 employees. So the park owner called for the cancellation. There's nothing a TD can do about that. Before you hang the TD, consider that maybe his hands were tied. I know at Sunny Lake, the city does all the field work. They don't allow teams or TD to do it. At least they didn't used to. I don't know about Streetsboro.

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Ill preface by stating I'm new to this softball stuff (daughter is a first year 8u player) but that I was the parent volunteer to take care of our field and I'm an MBA... So I have a tiny knowledge of crap fields and a lot of knowledge about managing an event (not necessarily softball events, but the logistics translate)

I agree with all those upset, because frankly this whole thing sounds like a clusterF and like the "solution" was come up with on the fly. It just sounds like there was no contingency for rain or if the field owner couldn't get the field ready... Both of which would be things I'd plan for for rec league, yet alone for a tournament where there's this many people paying good money.

I get with that many teams and games to be played it's a huge undertaking, but frankly by what's been described it sounds like they went it assuming good weather.

I'd also want to know the definition of "lost the field" because that seems to be different all over.

I also get that the TD has no control of the field operator says no... But would it be unreasonable to contact some of the community fields in the area and have them in your back pocket. You could check them for specs, but most would not care at all if you did the prep work yourself and most are close to drag and go condition given the time of year.

Sounds crappy, but which is worse, having to get last minute directions to a community field 5 minutes away or paying for a softball tourney and getting a coin flipping contest instead?

as for "10 minutes of rain" I'm pretty educated in upset person speak to know that means more likely a half hour downpour after a wet night. That being said, as a volunteer for my kids team on a community field that is one of the worst in our area for rain... I've taken a field at 3:30 where the home plate area was under 4-5 inches of water and made it ready to be lined and played on with these tools: a shovel, a rake, a push broom, my lawn tractor and our field's drag (made of a 2x6 with lag bolts drilled through it and a 4 foot square piece of old rusty chain link fence)

Was the field a 10? No, heck to be fair to myself our field on its best day is a 7, but I'd say it was a safe, very playable 5.


as for the outfield grass... Well if the grass was unplayable after "10 minutes of rain" the TD didn't do a good job vetting the facility they rented to play the tournament.

Just my opinion. Take it as you will.


(BTW, if I'm managing a tourney and I contact a facility that has 7-8 fields and only 2 people to care for them and won't allow coaches or tournament officials to assist in the case of rain... I move on and find a different facility.)

Caines03 said:

They were dry as a bone before the rain.

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If they were dry before the rain and you had 10 minutes of rain, frankly that sounds optimal after a good dragging. Cut down on dust!

DD's 10U team played single elimination on Sunday and I thought I was told game times were shortened. Don't know what the issue is there. Umps have final say on field conditions, not the TD. The rain was brief but torrential. We finished a little earlier and stopped for food, got near zero visibility for a few minutes on the road. One issue we had was the assistant (not the TD) was giving our coach some generic times Saturday night or Sunday morning. Sunday game time got changed after we arrived but I got to sleep in, not a bad deal. Other DD's 18U had to drop out of VE that weekend so I got to leave the toddler at home and enjoy the 10U game with the wife. They could have done a slightly better job marking the parking areas on the grass but no big deal. Streetsboro is a nice town. No real complaints.