default
Member
shes a scrub.............. shes not stacked at lag, she dosent have enough scap loading, it broke her heart to learn she diddnt know how to hit.......... she,ll get over it
default
Member
My take on "hitting evolution".
Rec. ball:
Pitching is generally the slowest a batter will face. If you watch from a side view, you'll notice the pitch actually has quite an arc to it. From a batter's perspective (especially an untrained kid) the pitch appears to be coming straight, when it actually is dropping a tremendous amount. Kids using a "mismatched" bat (too heavy, or end loaded) will tend to have a slow disconnected swing, where the barrel drops significantly below the hands - and the PERCEIVED pitch path. A little vision training teaching them to track the ball would help them see the ball dropping. But kids this age only see the ball about halfway to the plate - BEFORE it drops so much. Since the bat barrel drops too, frequent contact is still made. The problem is that this dropping hand and barrel path is reinforced because they are at least hitting the ball. Dropping barrel meets dropping ball.
10u travel ball:
Depending on the level of play and the instruction, things may not change a lot. For a lower tier 10u team facing slow pitching, it may be just an extension of rec. ball.
12u - 14u:
Generally (depending again on the level) the pitching will significantly improve. Now the ball isn't looping as much, so the batter with the hand/barrel path from above (no vision training) is swinging under and late. The "too heavy/end loaded" bat is taking it's toll, and frustration begins.
16u & up:
If the kid hasn't found the weight and balance for their bat by now, it's a tough road ahead. A combination of timing, hand path, bat weight & balance, and tracking skills (among other stuff) is a must. High school will bring out the worst in hitters who aren't prepared for the better pitching.
So what appears to be success may be short-lived. Be sure your DD has a bat that allows her to use "big girl" swing mechanics that will give her success against a much higher level of pitching.
Rec. ball:
Pitching is generally the slowest a batter will face. If you watch from a side view, you'll notice the pitch actually has quite an arc to it. From a batter's perspective (especially an untrained kid) the pitch appears to be coming straight, when it actually is dropping a tremendous amount. Kids using a "mismatched" bat (too heavy, or end loaded) will tend to have a slow disconnected swing, where the barrel drops significantly below the hands - and the PERCEIVED pitch path. A little vision training teaching them to track the ball would help them see the ball dropping. But kids this age only see the ball about halfway to the plate - BEFORE it drops so much. Since the bat barrel drops too, frequent contact is still made. The problem is that this dropping hand and barrel path is reinforced because they are at least hitting the ball. Dropping barrel meets dropping ball.
10u travel ball:
Depending on the level of play and the instruction, things may not change a lot. For a lower tier 10u team facing slow pitching, it may be just an extension of rec. ball.
12u - 14u:
Generally (depending again on the level) the pitching will significantly improve. Now the ball isn't looping as much, so the batter with the hand/barrel path from above (no vision training) is swinging under and late. The "too heavy/end loaded" bat is taking it's toll, and frustration begins.
16u & up:
If the kid hasn't found the weight and balance for their bat by now, it's a tough road ahead. A combination of timing, hand path, bat weight & balance, and tracking skills (among other stuff) is a must. High school will bring out the worst in hitters who aren't prepared for the better pitching.
So what appears to be success may be short-lived. Be sure your DD has a bat that allows her to use "big girl" swing mechanics that will give her success against a much higher level of pitching.
default
Member
All the formula's are impressive, but if she's swinging the bat has being successfull why pose the question in the first place. I don't get it
believe me i am not touching her bat i was not even complaining if you read original post i was just wondering if other girls out there were swinging that heavy a bat at that age.but i am definately not touching her bat
default
Member
once again she hits good mechanics are good and in most scenarios 55 is bp unless pitcher has alot of movement and she has faced better pitching believe me she hit of our 14u pitcher who throws 60-64 so she is ok i was not complaining just wondering if anyone else swings a tree at that age.i wanted to change her bat all of 10u till finally we went to nsa in columbus and she had 6 homeruns and over .500 after that just let her be and swallowed my words.she is very good hitter
default
Member
...14u pitcher who throws 60-64...
Gotta see video of that!
Gotta see video of that!
default
Member
I am not sure but then if that was true, A Porsch going 200mph and hitting headon a semi going only 50 mph, then the semi would bounce back farther AND BE ON THE LOSING END??????????... I am not sure but I do not believe Kinetic Energy is the right thing here....as the force of one is stopped and changed directions from the force of another... ... But its Been along time since Physics class
default
Member
Depends if the semi has a load or if it's an empty trailor. It is the Kinetic Energy of both the bat and the ball that determine the distance the ball will travel when solid contact is made.
I think I need to set up an experiment with two bats of the same make / model and different mass, then hit balls off a tee as hard as I can and see which causes to the ball to go furthest.
Been a long time for me too (since Physics class) but I still have my books! (somewhere)
default
Member
...14u pitcher who throws 60-64...
Gotta see video of that!
she won fastest pitcher at all sanction world series last year at 13 62 or 63 no video but can look it up if you like.she is pretty good.i am not one of those who hypes pitching speeds up it is not even my dd.just like watching her throw
default
Member
All I know, is my dd has been swinging a 23 oz. bat since she was 10, and she's 13 now.
default
Member
Yeah but the bat is only 16 inchs long, we are going to have to get her into at least a 20" bat this year
default
Member
No No No, Just ask Thunder's dad, He took a look at it at her session with him last weekend. She's got a 23 oz, 32-incher, and has been swinging it three years. (hopefully with more success after working more with Steve.)
default
Member
It is really simple....I use a Swing Speed Radar Unit. It is a Doppler unit and measures from the sweet part of the bat. Most radar units measure from the end of the bat and that usually reads 10 to 15 % higher.
I like them to hit balls off a tee and have them hit 10 balls with each bat and I have a target area set up on the net.
When they swing I DO NOT TELL them to swing as hard as they can, I ask them to swing and stay in the target area to see if they can control the bat. They are hitting the ball exactly up the middle.
The bat they swing the fastest and have the most control over is the one they use!
What affects bat speed in my opinion is, the grip they use, the amount of separation, hand height, elbow position during connection, flexed knee at stride and if they land on the inside edge of the foot or flat footed. Their load especially if they are leaning backwards has a huge effect because of momentum.
Hitters parents are similar to pitchers parents in that they think their kids are swinging about 5 MPH faster than they really are and think the Radar unit is broke or defective.
Grip alone can improve bat speed by 2 to 4 MPH and we have gone over this at clinics to prove it and the next huge factor is a good weight shift coming from a flexed front knee.
We have seen kids at the clinics swing at 52 to 58 MPH and with the above suggested improvements swing at 62 to 68 MPH in less than 15 minutes.
And yes here comes the punch line....unless you have a good swing technique it really makes no difference what bat you buy!
We all know they are made to the same standards and yes some break in and get hotter and they are working to correct that also, so the playing field is level for everyone.
Simple things like grip and extension through the ball makes huge improvements however for the most part many of you seem to skip over what it takes to actually swing a bat to get maximum performance from it.
When we ask the girls at the clinics how often they hit off the tee on their own it is usually one or two times a week. So why expect any difference if you buy a $400 dollar bat or a $100 dollar bat?
Most of them do not even understand how to swing a $7 dollar hammer because they do not understand how to grip the hammer in the top hand and it is different for the bottom hand and that the elbow to wrist is a lever and the elbow is a hinge and the wrist is a hinge.
Lets go to Gold Star now! Oh! When you get their helmet painted make sure it fits PLEASE! Having the mask move while they are hitting and running is a little distracting for most people even those using a $400 dollar bat! Schutt and Worth have pretty good helmets for less than $50 dollars that are designed to fit the girls faces and have adjustable pads that go inside the helmet.
Check your kids helmets before you buy a new bat as you may be surprised at how loose the helmet is and they can not see the ball very well!
OK Sammy lets hit the trail! :lmao:
default
Member
Howard - I actually am going to "hit the trail". Going up to visit DD, and get some good Mexican food tonight. Oh yeah, there's a couple softball games going on too! I'll let you know if I find a Gold Star joint.
default
Member
A ball on a tee would have a KE of zero. You would need the ball doing work in order to conduct a valid experiment, as well as a constant work from you, the batter. Also, KE is "work" based on the result of the force applied to the object, and rotational force (torque) is the product of MOI and angular acceleration. Therefore, given bats of the same build and materials, the best thing for hitters to do is to swing a bat with the highest MOI they can without degrading their swing speed. MOI is in the same direction as to swing weight so Physics is telling us to swing the greatest swing weight bat possible while maintaining good bat speed and form.
Len
default
Member
The difference on the F=ma or Energy balance requirments in the KE equation and the Porsche example is a porshe is designed to take those "equal and opposite" reactions into consideration to not kill the driver with crumple zones in the design. Yes the bat too has impact and response in consideration as well.
Lenski is on point too.
I will throw this scenario out... in basketball... why do we teach them to shoot the right way at a 8' basket? I know some leagues do not... point is... why have them swing an incredibly heavy bat just to show off some dad's HP intrigue that shouldn't be considered until her techinque (feet, balance, hand path, grip, heal plant, etc + Howards list that I didn't quote) are cable of taking bat speed and bat path to the next level. The goal is to be able to adjust to different pitches in milliseconds and having a DD swing a bat that gets her all catty-wompous (BD is that the right spelling?) isn't the best in my opininon at any age. So the only issue then becomes cost... what would you pay to have her progress just as she does in basketball, school, or any other venue that requires maturity to take it the next level.
Also understand the "don't fix it... it ain't broke" mindset. If the long term goal is to let them hit at all ages in their playing career, set them up to be successfull now, later, and always if you can.
My 2 cents on a Saturday morning...:cap:
PS, isn't this more related to Dynamics than physics? Just an extension of physics... lmao
default
Member
From Doctor Russel's site....
Trade-off between higher bat speed and less effective collision
Before you run out to purchase a new bat with lowest moment-of-inertia you can find in order to increase your bat-swing speed in hopes of hitting balls faster, there is a catch. It is true that lower MOI translates to higher bat-swing speed, and that higher bat-swing speed results in higher batted-ball speed. However, a gain in batted-ball speed only results if you are swinging the same bat faster. Swinging a lower MOI bat faster does not resulting in a faster batted-ball speed. This is because the effectiveness of the collision between bat and ball depends on the MOI of the bat, and a lower MOI bat produces a less effective collision with the ball. If the bat-swing speed is held constant, a bat with a lower moment-of-inertia produces a less-effective collision with the ball such that the batted-ball speed actually decreases for the lower MOI bat. In fact, when a player switches to a lower MOI bat, the increase in batted-ball speed due to higher swing speed is almost exactly canceled out by the reduction in batted-ball speed because the lower MOI bat impacts the ball less effectively. I discuss this trade-off between higher bat-swing speed and lower collision efficiency in my article on the BESR and MOI performance standard for NCAA baseball bats. The trade-off between bat-swing speed and collision efficiency due to changes in moment-of-inertia is also the reason that corking a bat may help a player increase his batting average, but will not enable him to hit more home runs. If a lower MOI bat doesn't hit balls as effectively, why would a player want to switch to a lower MOI bat? A lower MOI bat would provide a player with greater bat control. The increase in bat-swing speed means a player could wait a split second longer before committing to a swing. Waiting a couple of milliseconds would allow a player to watch a fast-pitched baseball travel an additional 5-6 feet before having to commit to a swing - and that additional time (distance) could enable the player to distinguish between a curve or sinker, or between a strike or ball. Bat control would improve for a lower MOI bat, and that might allow a player to make solid contact with the ball more frequently. But, a lower MOI bat will not help a player hit balls faster. So, if you want to increase your batting average, switch to a lower MOI bat. But, if you want to hit more home runs (which requires a faster BBS) you'll need to increase your arm and upper body strength and generate a faster bat-swing speed.
Also....
Why is the MOI measured with respect to the 6-inch point on the handle?
Much of the early research on baseball bats assumed that the pivot point during the entire swing, including the rotation just prior to impact, was located under the top hand about 6-inches from the knob of the handle.[7] However, recent field studies have shown that for both softball[8] and baseball[9] the actual pivot point of the bat (the instantaneous center of rotation) during impact with the ball is about 2.5 inches beyond the knob and about 1.5 inches off the long axis of the bat. A sampling of data points from a recent field study of top amateur slow-pitch softball players is shown at right.
Trade-off between higher bat speed and less effective collision
Before you run out to purchase a new bat with lowest moment-of-inertia you can find in order to increase your bat-swing speed in hopes of hitting balls faster, there is a catch. It is true that lower MOI translates to higher bat-swing speed, and that higher bat-swing speed results in higher batted-ball speed. However, a gain in batted-ball speed only results if you are swinging the same bat faster. Swinging a lower MOI bat faster does not resulting in a faster batted-ball speed. This is because the effectiveness of the collision between bat and ball depends on the MOI of the bat, and a lower MOI bat produces a less effective collision with the ball. If the bat-swing speed is held constant, a bat with a lower moment-of-inertia produces a less-effective collision with the ball such that the batted-ball speed actually decreases for the lower MOI bat. In fact, when a player switches to a lower MOI bat, the increase in batted-ball speed due to higher swing speed is almost exactly canceled out by the reduction in batted-ball speed because the lower MOI bat impacts the ball less effectively. I discuss this trade-off between higher bat-swing speed and lower collision efficiency in my article on the BESR and MOI performance standard for NCAA baseball bats. The trade-off between bat-swing speed and collision efficiency due to changes in moment-of-inertia is also the reason that corking a bat may help a player increase his batting average, but will not enable him to hit more home runs. If a lower MOI bat doesn't hit balls as effectively, why would a player want to switch to a lower MOI bat? A lower MOI bat would provide a player with greater bat control. The increase in bat-swing speed means a player could wait a split second longer before committing to a swing. Waiting a couple of milliseconds would allow a player to watch a fast-pitched baseball travel an additional 5-6 feet before having to commit to a swing - and that additional time (distance) could enable the player to distinguish between a curve or sinker, or between a strike or ball. Bat control would improve for a lower MOI bat, and that might allow a player to make solid contact with the ball more frequently. But, a lower MOI bat will not help a player hit balls faster. So, if you want to increase your batting average, switch to a lower MOI bat. But, if you want to hit more home runs (which requires a faster BBS) you'll need to increase your arm and upper body strength and generate a faster bat-swing speed.
Also....
Why is the MOI measured with respect to the 6-inch point on the handle?
Much of the early research on baseball bats assumed that the pivot point during the entire swing, including the rotation just prior to impact, was located under the top hand about 6-inches from the knob of the handle.[7] However, recent field studies have shown that for both softball[8] and baseball[9] the actual pivot point of the bat (the instantaneous center of rotation) during impact with the ball is about 2.5 inches beyond the knob and about 1.5 inches off the long axis of the bat. A sampling of data points from a recent field study of top amateur slow-pitch softball players is shown at right.
Similar threads
ALL-STARS Tournament
July 19-21 - GGSA Treaty City Rec/All-Star Shootout - Greenville - 8U, 10U, 12U, 14U