8u Tournament Play - Is this normal?

gtrthang

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My daughter started8u travel ball this year on a new team that was created from the core of herold rec ball team. Recently the headcoach came out with a new rule that all the girls could play in the pool games,but only the top 10 may play in the bracket games. The top 10 are identified by skill level andattitude. Based on pure stats, mydaughter is in the bottom 3 of the team. This past weekend, the team won their first tournament and my daughterwas able to a single inning (field only, where she may two plays) in the firstgame and in the championship game she didn't get to play at all, even though itwas a 12-0 blowout (or something close to that).

Is this normal for8u? I would expect this with 12u andmaybe with 10u to a degree. Seems like8u should be more inclusive and not focused on winning at all cost. My daughter was upset and my wife and I arepissed off. Due to this issue and thefact that it seems like none of the outfield girls will ever have anopportunity to move to an in field position due, we're thinking of looking fora new team this fall.
 

cobb_of_fury

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In my opinion -
8U, 10U and 12U and first year 14U is preparing girls to play at the next level (16U and Highschool) and those levels prepare them for College -

I believe the younger levels should be about training and teaching fundamentals NOT WINNING - that being said - I believe IF you teach fundamentals well and you have girls buy in to your system you will win -
I am not saying teams should not play to win - I'm saying Winning is a result not a goal. (I can type that LOUDER if you dont understand that)

At 8U and 10U eespecially it is a SIN to not move girls around and expose them to all positions and see what They enjoy what they will work to - I have no problem (Fundimentaly) with your best 9 (or 10) Starting on Sunday but do your best to get ALL the girls in.

At 8U and 10U you are talking about girls not that far removed from Tee ball - YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT THEY WILL BE CAPABLE OF IN 2 or 3 or 5 years - BUT if you don't play them, they WILL GO PLAY SOCCER and you wont ever know.

8U 10U 12U coaches - the girls you have now will be completely different people in a couple years - The best players can become the worst - That girl who is stuck on the bench will become a stud - I HAVE SEEN IT - don't get stuck thinking JUST WIN BABY - because that is flat out STUPID and it will HURT the girls down the line.

- Ok, OK... Can somebody help me down from this Soap Box...
 
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yossarian

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Is this normal for8u? I would expect this with 12u andmaybe with 10u to a degree. Seems like8u should be more inclusive and not focused on winning at all cost. My daughter was upset and my wife and I arepissed off. Due to this issue and thefact that it seems like none of the outfield girls will ever have anopportunity to move to an in field position due, we're thinking of looking fora new team this fall.

Well said, Cobb_of_Wisdom. Personally, in my humble opinion as a parent, I think your gut is right about that being common at the older age brackets you mentioned. So you should be prepared for that as she moves up. But the good news is, at 12U and even 10U, they are so much more mature. While they may be upset to sit out, they're also old enough at that point to start understanding that they have a part in improving themselves, which is an awesome lesson in life.

I agree that at 8U, I'd be very unhappy with the situation. To me, that's just a training ground. Depending on the coach, do you feel like you can approach him ask what she could do to improve herself? In the end, it's his rule and his right, but he may appreciate you asking from that standpoint and he might even be willing to give her some additional one on one training? Also, have you considered looking into an outside batting coach? It may seem crazy at 8U, but it can really help and if that gives your daughter more confidence, you may feel like it's time and money well spent. My kid loves that time with her hitting instructor.

I feel terrible for your family because I've been there. The fact that you're talking about this fall for a change and not mid-season says a lot about your character. Don't let the situation take that from you.

Best of luck to you and your daughter.
 

gtrthang

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Thanks for the replies. The head coach isn't receptive to feedback on this topic, but we are going to talk with the assistant coach about it. We are also planning on a batting coach. Until recently, I thought her batting was pretty much on par with the other girls, but after seeing the detailed stats earlier this week I found it is lower than I expected, so we'll get her the coaching she needs there to feel more confident. We also just upgraded her bat which helped her with distance there.

I did find out from my wife tonight, for the first time this season they did practice moving the girls around to different positions, including the outfield players to some infield positions. That is a step in the right direction, although there did seem to be attitude when someone new to a position wasn't as good as a person who normally plays there.
 

lewam3

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I know I am going to catch a little flack here, but those who know me know that I have always felt this way...
at 8u, do you really need to be playing travel ball? We are talking 2nd-3rd graders here, right? If your DD is 3rd worst on a team put together with former rec ball players, then maybe your created your own misery by making this decision this summer. IMHO, have her develop her skills in a rec league where she can shine and most importantly-HAVE FUN!!! I am concerned that if she's riding the bench on the weekend, and if she senses your frustration all summer, she will soon be asking to play another sport. Riding the bench has no place at 8u and 10u, but that's the reality of travel ball...
 

Louuuuu

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GTRThang, I do believe that, at 8U, your coach is implementing a not-uncommon travel ball playing-time policy too early.

However, do you remember all the reasons why you decided to leave Rec Ball? "Everybody Plays Equally" was one of them.
 

yossarian

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I wasn't suggesting you give feedback to him about how he's running things. I was suggesting you ask him for feedback on how your daughter can improve. Big difference.
 

crystlemc

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Also, do not give in to the mistaken thinking that outfield is somehow less than infield. When they hit 12u, the outfield becomes ever more important. When they are in HS, the outfield is crucial. If the ball gets through the infield, it's a base hit. If it gets through the outfield, it could very well be a run. Some of the most spectacular plays are made in the outfield.

That being said, that playing time "rule" should remain shelved until 12u at the earliest. Kids are still growing and learning what they are capable of. They are still learning the fundamentals and what they are to do come game time. My DD at the age of 8-9 was a horrible player. Zero skill. None. Nada. Then, between 9-10, she found her legs and became a very good ball player. Her rec coach when she was 8-10 saw zero potential in her. When we moved the summer of her 10th year, her new rec coaches loved her and she fell in love with the game.

Keep working with your DD at home on the fundamentals. One day, she will grow into it and find the perfect team for her.
 

daboss

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lewam3 really summed things up pretty well and I can't stand to see somebody out there on the edge alone. I'm stepping out in support and need to add my few thoughts on the subject.

You need to review the travel ball ethics and compare it to the Rec ball train of thought. gtrthang, you have discovered something with your daughter that is inevitable. There is always a top AND bottom to every mountain. While your daughter may have been considered better than others at a Rec level of competition, in the travel ball world she doesn't shine like that new penny in the pot. Perhaps your decision to go travel ball was premature. You need to evaluate your reasoning for this venture as well as have an open mind to your daughter's true level of skill. If you motive was to get her into a higher level of competition to challenge her it sounds as if you found what you are looking for. You should be answering the challenge with a healthy attitude by encouraging your daughter to work harder to achieve a regular player status in bracket play. A much healthier approach than "My daughter was upset and my wife and I arepissed off. Due to this issue and thefact that it seems like none of the outfield girls will ever have anopportunity to move to an in field position due, we're thinking of looking fora new team this fall."

I realize you tried to heal yourself with a follow up post; <quote> "Thanks for the replies. The head coach isn't receptive to feedback on this topic, but we are going to talk with the assistant coach about it. We are also planning on a batting coach. Until recently, I thought her batting was pretty much on par with the other girls, but after seeing the detailed stats earlier this week I found it is lower than I expected, so we'll get her the coaching she needs there to feel more confident. We also just upgraded her bat which helped her with distance there.

I did find out from my wife tonight, for the first time this season they did practice moving the girls around to different positions, including the outfield players to some infield positions. That is a step in the right direction, although there did seem to be attitude when someone new to a position wasn't as good as a person who normally plays there."

My point is your initial reaction was judgmental without all the facts and seeing the situation thru clouded parental eyes. Your initial reaction was to change teams instead of let's get some extra help and practice more to improve our contribution to the team effort. While I get you see the error of your ways now, your reaction as an adult has a direct impact on your daughter's state of mind as well as how other parents and coaches perceive you.

I don't sense you want to be THAT kind of parent. However, I am glad you shared with us so others may be able to relate and understand how an attitude can change your entire approach to an unhealthy path for future development. Stuff like this can become a stigma attached to you and your family and can act like a virus and spread thru the parental herd. The poor coaches end up dealing with the drama instead of dealing with coaching the kids. Again, I don't sense you want to be that way.

You contact me privately and if we can arrange it I'll be happy to meet you and your daughter and give her some 1 on 1 on any aspect of the game you believe I can help with. Let's fix the problem if we can and not become the problem. Good luck!!!
 

gtrthang

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My point is your initial reaction was judgmental without all the facts and seeing the situation thru clouded parental eyes. Your initial reaction was to change teams instead of let's get some extra help and practice more to improve our contribution to the team effort. While I get you see the error of your ways now, your reaction as an adult has a direct impact on your daughter's state of mind as well as how other parents and coaches perceive you.

We I found the stats earlier this week, immediately planned on the batting practice, but I didn't include that in the original post because it wasn't part of the point of the question. Even if my daughter is playing, some other girl is being excluded. In my opinion, that creates a feeling of division in the team, that isn't conducive to a tight knit team. Since I'm new to the travel league thing I wanted to see if the behavior I was seeing with this team was typical or atypical. We don't share our feelings with our daughter on the team and the coach, as we don't want to taint her view of her team at all.

I thank everyone for their feedback and I have a much better feeling for what is normal and what isn't. We started down the travel ball path primarily because by daughters friends were moving from rec ball to a new travel team. She now firmly has the bug, so she'll be doing it for many years. We want her to be happy and fulfilled. So we'll always look out to see what we can do to help guide her towards that goal. That help will come in the form of additional lessons and may include changing teams.
 

joanntwit

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In my opinion -
8U, 10U and 12U and first year 14U is preparing girls to play at the next level (16U and Highschool) and those levels prepare them for College -

I believe the younger levels should be about training and teaching fundamentals NOT WINNING - that being said - I believe IF you teach fundamentals well and you have girls buy in to your system you will win -
I am not saying teams should not play to win - I'm saying Winning is a result not a goal. (I can type that LOUDER if you dont understand that)

At 8U and 10U eespecially it is a SIN to not move girls around and expose them to all positions and see what They enjoy what they will work to - I have no problem (Fundimentaly) with your best 9 (or 10) Starting on Sunday but do your best to get ALL the girls in.

At 8U and 10U you are talking about girls not that far removed from Tee ball - YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT THEY WILL BE CAPABLE OF IN 2 or 3 or 5 years - BUT if you don't play them, they WILL GO PLAY SOCCER and you wont ever know.

8U 10U 12U coaches - the girls you have now will be completely different people in a couple years - The best players can become the worst - That girl who is stuck on the bench will become a stud - I HAVE SEEN IT - don't get stuck thinking JUST WIN BABY - because that is flat out STUPID and it will HURT the girls down the line.

- Ok, OK... Can somebody help me down from this Soap Box...

********"8U 10U 12U coaches - the girls you have now will be completely different people in a couple years - The best players can become the worst - That girl who is stuck on the bench will become a stud - I HAVE SEEN IT - don't get stuck thinking JUST WIN BABY - because that is flat out STUPID and it will HURT the girls down the line." *********

Best thing I've read all afternoon!!!
 

El Spizo

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In my opinion -
8U, 10U and 12U and first year 14U is preparing girls to play at the next level (16U and Highschool) and those levels prepare them for College -

I believe the younger levels should be about training and teaching fundamentals NOT WINNING - that being said - I believe IF you teach fundamentals well and you have girls buy in to your system you will win -
I am not saying teams should not play to win - I'm saying Winning is a result not a goal. (I can type that LOUDER if you dont understand that)

At 8U and 10U eespecially it is a SIN to not move girls around and expose them to all positions and see what They enjoy what they will work to - I have no problem (Fundimentaly) with your best 9 (or 10) Starting on Sunday but do your best to get ALL the girls in.

At 8U and 10U you are talking about girls not that far removed from Tee ball - YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT THEY WILL BE CAPABLE OF IN 2 or 3 or 5 years - BUT if you don't play them, they WILL GO PLAY SOCCER and you wont ever know.

8U 10U 12U coaches - the girls you have now will be completely different people in a couple years - The best players can become the worst - That girl who is stuck on the bench will become a stud - I HAVE SEEN IT - don't get stuck thinking JUST WIN BABY - because that is flat out STUPID and it will HURT the girls down the line.

- Ok, OK... Can somebody help me down from this Soap Box...


I cant agree with this more. 8u and 10u should be about learning the game not about winning the game. My philosophy is if you teach the girls right, winning will take care of itself.

this is my daughter's first year of softball and she's 8u and I gotta say, the difference from team to team as we play these games is amazing. I'm happy we have encouraging coaches that teach the game even during the game. After our 8th game last night every girl has played every position at least twice if not in their 3rd rotation (exception my kid only played 1st one inning and everyone agreed she's terrible at it and will hurt herself if she doesn't learn the position better before she tries it again)

however, not all of the other coaches on other teams seem to share this opinion that it's about learning the game as a team... Some seem to think its about having everyone else watch their kids play from the outfield. Some of these coaches seem like they mainline a case of red bull before each inning.

after watching one absolutely berate a girl for not running out a line drive to first, I mean everyone with any self respect was blushing with embarassment about sharing a species with the guy, I couldn't help it, I chirped "calm done there coach, these girls still get presents from the tooth fairy" at the guy and he was either red with embarassment or anger, not sure it mattered which.

i really thought "dance mom" and "coach dad" were made for TV characters to sell more ads on the latest reality show on the e! Channel, but I here to tell you these people exist for real.
 
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Softballfarm

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The two warning signs I read from the op is some of the 8u players arent playing and the coach is not approachable. Obviously this coach is not focused on helping kids develop a love for the game. Run away.

Joe Nay
Thunder Elite 03
 

PrideFan03

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After being an assistant coach for around 30 8u travel tournament games this year the answer to your question is no, that's not normal. Almost every team we have played have batted their roster and seemed to get all their players into the game. Personally I think it's a quick and easy way to kill the love for the game early, by not playing kids at the 8u level. I'd really be hesitant to be around a team that picked their best 10 on bracket days at this age group.

Justin Smith
Pride '07/08
 

24GahannaLadyLions7

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In a very similar situation with my 8U daughter's team as the OP, our team recently decided with the 10 best plays on Sunday. Even though I didn't agree fully with the decision, it was a decision I had to support as the coaching staff made as clear as day at the beginning of the year that they are going to play the "best players on Championship Sunday". The first couple of tournaments we roster batted in bracket play, but now they changed and decided to go with 10 on Sunday as stated at the 1st initial meeting. Before accepting membership on the team, I had a conversation with my wife saying it could be a situation that our daughter could be facing not playing in bracket play. She was by far the youngest on the team as an 09 on an 07 team. It was a sacrifice and chance we decided to make knowing that she could very well be sitting on Sunday. What we were signing up for was the hours and hours of practice our 8U team was going to get through the Winter/Spring months. Maybe she wasn't going to play, but the amount of work she got outside of games was incredible. Meeting twice a week, sometimes 3 times a week as an 8u squad was more than we could of imagined. Coaches always practiced with girls having an outfield spot and an infield spot. Again, I don't fully agree with the decision and my philosophy at the 8U level, but I have to back the decision of the coaching staff as this is what they think is best for our squad.
 

El Spizo

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Dear coaches,

8u and 10u should never, ever, place winning over learning and loving the game. I'm very happy to have a girl on a 2-7 team because she's gone from not knowing the game (or even having a glove) to loving this game in a few short months.

I've watched coaches who must mainline a case of red bull before each game yell constant from first pitch to handshakes. Watched a number of them berate the girls for making mistakes instead of coaching them up and encouraging them to do better.

im sorry coach, but hold back the disapproving head shake and scowl for girls who still believe in the tooth fairy and man up and be a coach, not a d***
 

El Spizo

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Keep in mind, winning isn't something to avoid, it's something to strive for... But it's not the top of the list at this age.
 

ificanbelikeu

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Stop and breathe... It's 8U. Night and day difference between 8U and 10U.... Night and day difference between 10U and 12U.... Night and day difference between 12U and 14U... Well you get the point
 

wow

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The two warning signs I read from the op is some of the 8u players arent playing and the coach is not approachable. Obviously this coach is not focused on helping kids develop a love for the game. Run away.

Most have already stated its 8u relax. Look for development, approachability in the coaching staff, and more importantly coaches who have great communication with parents. At the younger ages and unless they have older kids, parents don't know what to expect. There is a learning curve and a coach at 8u has to understand how to manage this. Simply having a "my way or the high way mentality" is not enough.
 

El Spizo

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Most have already stated its 8u relax. Look for development, approachability in the coaching staff, and more importantly coaches who have great communication with parents. At the younger ages and unless they have older kids, parents don't know what to expect. There is a learning curve and a coach at 8u has to understand how to manage this. Simply having a "my way or the high way mentality" is not enough.

Fortunately, so far, rules committees seem to have a cooler head than coaches and even umpires. Although... The bullhead mentality is starting to creep it's way into the committees and some of these seem to be impatient daddy ball coaches wanting 8u to be 18u.

8u having tournaments to begin with is a stretch, but they are here and do serve a purpose... But At this level it still needs to be a learning experience and not a win at all cost to satisfy the empty place inside "live through my daughter dad" coach.
 

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