Catching and Catchers discussion Don't Ever Teach Your Catchers to Frame a Pitch!

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Re: Don't Ever Teach Your Catchers to Frame a Pitc

Quote from ohioquakerman:

The strike was called because it was a strike. But, after a catcher does that to me as an umpire and even though the catcher thought she was doing the right thing in framing it as her coach had taught her to do.... I usually have a talk with the catcher about doing it and explain to her the above.... but if she continues...... well you make the call.....

If the pitches are actually strikes, would you call otherwise because the catcher is still trying to frame it, in her definition of framing? After your 'talk' with her, she should be able to instantly undo years of a trained reaction to pitches? As several have already stated, the calls should be made on where the ball crosses the zone, not on the slight movements of the catcher as they receive the ball. No catcher will ever be sitting perfectly still, especially when you are catching an advanced pitcher, and depending on the game situation.

Any chance you were umpiring at Troy Lady Liberty tournament last July?
 
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Re: Don't Ever Teach Your Catchers to Frame a Pitc

Forum,
?As somone who has taught catching and been involved in travel level ball for the last 7-8 years, a strike is a strike, and a ball is a ball. No heckling, or framing, or anything else should influence an umpire. A catcher should frame a very close pitch if needed and let the wide ones go. Being a quiet catcher is the best advice I ever got as far as teaching that part of receiving goes.
? What I have found to be the most destructive thing is the catcher smacking her glove on the ground, shaking her head, or framing the pitch for several seconds after receiving the pitch. Thats the only thing that has seemed to set off an umpire in the 3-400 games I`ve been involved in. ? ?
 
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Re: Don't Ever Teach Your Catchers to Frame a Pitc

I'm not an umpire so I'll bow out after this last comment because it is apparent I will never understand what the big deal about framing is from an umps perspective. Why is the umpire even looking at the glove anyway. Who cares where the ball ends up after it crosses the plate. If an ump is so sensitive from the small movements of the catchers mitt after the ball is through the zone and caught then maybe umpiring isn't for them. I bet most umps minds are made up before the pitch can be framed anyway. Like I said, I'm not an ump, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.
 
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Re: Don't Ever Teach Your Catchers to Frame a Pitc

As an umpire, I can tell you that movements of the catchers mitt can block the clear view of the plate, which in turn could obscure the ball, which could block the clear view of hitting the corners or the knees. Also, batters hands and/or elbows can block the clear view of the plate, causing the same obscuring as mentioned in the previous sentence.

The umpire needs to set themselves to see the plate clearly prior to the pitch, so any movement after the pitch begins could cause obscuring, which could cause a pitch call that is not exactly accurate. Remember, it can go for or against the pitcher, depending on who or what causes the obscuring.

Personally, framing a pitch with me behind the plate is wasted effort by the catcher, and could be detrimental.
 
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Re: Don't Ever Teach Your Catchers to Frame a Pitc

A strike is a strike and a ball is a ball. I agree. And no to where ever that tournament was held, I did not attend. I have witnesed with a partner (first time and only time) where a strike zone was extended, so to say. In the game behind the plate, the partner had a team that struck out a lot and lost by 11. I had the same team behind the plate the very next game and they won in 5 by 11 runs.

The difference, you may ask. I personally think the difference was the strike zone. The team was taking a lot of third strikes, not swinging. When I did the plate the very next game, the coach told them to hit good strikes. I noticed off to the side, the girls watching my strike zone the very first inning when their teammate was at bat. Seeing if I was calling that low strike or.... outside pitch that was a close enough called strike last game.
A mark of a good coach indeed.

I don't call strikes because it is close or because it is fall ball and it's all about swinging the bat. NO actually, it is about improving the skills for competition tournament starting next Spring. Learning a strike zone is the true skill of both the batter and the pitcher no matter what age group.

As for the catcher, an earlier post is correct in stating that a catcher's glove extended out sometimes blocks a vision of the umpire, somewhat. As it does, but I try to before every pitch find my outside corner in comparision with my body (shoulder) and give it my best judgement when the pitch comes in.

Everybody is comfortable in their own way in knowing where the outside of the plate is located in comparision with your body at the time of the pitch.
 
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Re: Don't Ever Teach Your Catchers to Frame a Pitc

Catchingcoach (Dave Weaver) has posted these same tips on several other websites over the course of the past few years. His posts on "framing" always generate a lively discussion on strikes and the strike zone. If you haven't visited his website- a link to it can be found on his OFC profile- it's worth a look, with tons of good information on the catching position.

While the "hook" in the title of his article might draw you in, the techniques he is advocating are the classic definition of "pitch framing". And that is one important distinction that has to be made. "Framing" a pitch means the catcher receives the ball with little movement or effort, as opposed to "pulling" a pitch- receiving the ball, then moving the mitt toward the strike zone. They really are two completely different things.

Some other observations on the subject:

- This whole concept might be hard to grasp unless you have been behind the plate and charged with the responsibility of judging pitches.

The strike zone, while given definition in the rule book, is influenced by some fairly subjective limits. It is essentially an invisible, three dimensional box, floating in space, with the fringes extrapolated from some points outside that box- armpits and top of the knees on a batter outside of the zone and the edges of the plate lying on the ground.

Tracking a moving object through an estimated "window" is bound to be more difficult at the fringe borders of that box. The catcher's mitt provides another point of reference when tracking the path of a moving object. And that is one big distinction that must be made- the mitt does not define the strike zone, rather it can help to define the path of the pitch and how that path relates to the strike zone.

- How the catcher receives the pitch should only have a meaningful effect on "borderline" pitches- those at the fringe edges of that three dimensional box.

Pitches that are clearly within the zone should never be called a "ball" simply because the catcher caught it at an awkward angle, had to move her mitt to get it or even if the ball is dropped. But those pitches at the fringes- where the pitcher often lives or dies and even the best umpire is making an educated guess- can be influenced by how the pitch is received.

Teaching your catcher these fundamentals can help the borderline pitches go in your favor. Even if it only comes into play a few pitches a game, why would you not want to give your team every possible advantage?

- This whole theory is magnified as you progress up through the higher levels of playing ball.

At the younger ages, where the pitchers and catchers are less skilled, painting the corners and framing pitches isn't much of a factor. In the typical 10U recreational league you're happy to get a hittable pitch in the same zip code as the plate, let alone a catcher who can catch the ball!

As the battery becomes more skilled, these techniques become more influential. When you have pitchers that can hit their spots, with appreciable speed and movement, the borderline pitch becomes a much bigger factor. How the catcher receives these borderline pitches can tip the scales in your favor.
 
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Re: Don't Ever Teach Your Catchers to Frame a Pitc

I agree! ?;)

Humorous and informative, as always, Bretman.
 
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Re: Don't Ever Teach Your Catchers to Frame a Pitc

And I double-dog agree! ?:)

A similar take on this, from an umpire's perspective, can be found in this article:

The Ten Unwritten Rules of Calling Balls and Strikes

The author, Jim Porter, is an executive with Major League Baseball in the area of umpire review and evaluation (ie: not just some yahoo spouting off on the internet). While many umpires who have seen this might disagree on some of the points raised, you can get a general idea of how receiving the pitch relates to calling balls and strikes.
 
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Re: Don't Ever Teach Your Catchers to Frame a Pitc

bretman said:
Teaching your catcher these fundamentals can help the borderline pitches go in your favor. Even if it only comes into play a few pitches a game, why would you not want to give your team every possible advantage?

- This whole theory is magnified as you progress up through the higher levels of playing ball.

At the younger ages, where the pitchers and catchers are less skilled, painting the corners and framing pitches isn't much of a factor. In the typical 10U recreational league you're happy to get a hittable pitch in the same zip code as the plate, let alone a catcher who can catch the ball!

As the battery becomes more skilled, these techniques become more influential. When you have pitchers that can hit their spots, with appreciable speed and movement, the borderline pitch becomes a much bigger factor. How the catcher receives these borderline pitches can tip the scales in your favor.

This should be the Gospel of every catcher. Parents of younger kids won't fully understand, or appreciate it until your DD is an advanced pitcher or catcher at about 16u and above. THEN you'll know what "I told you so" really means!

As always, great post bretman.
 
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Re: Don't Ever Teach Your Catchers to Frame a Pitc

catchingcoach said:
[quote author=stp12 link=1191036203/0#6 date=1191244219]My opinion is that you need to be able to frame a pitch without the umpire knowing you did. ?Just a little turn of the wrist (instead of jerking your arm) is usually all you need. ?I'm talking about balls that are just bordrline or a few inches off the plate. ?Don't waste your time on pitches that are a foot outside.


Stp12,

"Framing a pitch without the umpire knowing it for pitches that are a few inches off the plate"

If I understand that statement the turn of the wrist you describe would move the ball/glove closer to the plate.

If that is what you mean, (I know that is what others have meant that have indicated they like this technique) then here is why I would teach not to do this.

The umpire is following the balls flight in the air. As it approaches the plate area his eyes drop so he now sees the plate, the batter, and the catchers glove, and maybe the catcher too. He sees the ball hit the glove, he hears the ball hit the glove, and then he sees the glove move in towards the plate.

No matter how smooth, subtle, or slick the catcher is, the bottom line is that the umpire will see the glove moved towards the plate after he both sees and hears the ball hit the glove.

This can only send one message to the umpire. This catcher thought this pitch needed help.[/quote]


Catchingcoach, I will continue to use this method because it works with about 90% of umpires. I like those odds. You represent the minority. You might be the greatest ump tha ever lived but the guys we get on a regular basis call these pitches strikes. All kidding aside, you might want to label your post "Don't ever teach your catcher to frame a pitch if I'm behind the plate".
 
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Re: Don't Ever Teach Your Catchers to Frame a Pitc

stp12 said:
[quote author=catchingcoach link=1191036203/0#14 date=1191272600][quote author=stp12 link=1191036203/0#6 date=1191244219]My opinion is that you need to be able to frame a pitch without the umpire knowing you did. ?Just a little turn of the wrist (instead of jerking your arm) is usually all you need. ?I'm talking about balls that are just bordrline or a few inches off the plate. ?Don't waste your time on pitches that are a foot outside.


Stp12,

"Framing a pitch without the umpire knowing it for pitches that are a few inches off the plate"

If I understand that statement the turn of the wrist you describe would move the ball/glove closer to the plate.

If that is what you mean, (I know that is what others have meant that have indicated they like this technique) then here is why I would teach not to do this.

The umpire is following the balls flight in the air. As it approaches the plate area his eyes drop so he now sees the plate, the batter, and the catchers glove, and maybe the catcher too. He sees the ball hit the glove, he hears the ball hit the glove, and then he sees the glove move in towards the plate.

No matter how smooth, subtle, or slick the catcher is, the bottom line is that the umpire will see the glove moved towards the plate after he both sees and hears the ball hit the glove.

This can only send one message to the umpire. This catcher thought this pitch needed help.[/quote]


Catchingcoach, I will continue to use this method because it works with about 90% of umpires. ?I like those odds. ?You represent the minority. ?You might be the greatest ump tha ever lived but the guys we get on a regular basis call these pitches strikes. ?All kidding aside, you might want to label your post "Don't ever teach your catcher to frame a pitch if I'm behind the plate".
[/quote]


Stp12,

I appreciate your gracious disagreement. Wish more folks on forums would just agree to disagree and move on. Quite refreshing...thank you.

BTW, I am not an umpire at all...I just run a school for catchers.
 
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Re: Don't Ever Teach Your Catchers to Frame a Pitc

Stp12 - What age group are you involved with? The technique you describe WILL INDEED work for some inexperienced umps at less competitive levels, but for a different reason. We've all seen games where pitchers are struggling to throw a strike. It's an unwritten courtesy to call some of those marginal balls strikes - equally for both pitchers. It moves the game along, and everyone is happy.

If your DD is a pitcher or catcher, I GUARANTEE you this technique WILL NOT work at the college level, and rarely does it work at the high school level. So why teach a habit that is detrimental at the higher levels of play? I compare the common misconception of "framing" (moving the mitt) to teaching your pitcher to step back inher wind up. Sure, it's legal in high school, but NOT in ASA or college. It's just one more habit to unlearn. There are a lot of "trick" plays some coaches teach younger kids, like continuing on to second on a walk with third base occupied. They're fun at younger ages, but don't even think of using them against a truly competitive team.
 
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Re: Don't Ever Teach Your Catchers to Frame a Pitc

I've been at every level from youth through 18Gold, college, and then back again. And at every level you can get a ball that is a few inches off of the plate called a strike; so it's not detrimental at all.
 
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Re: Don't Ever Teach Your Catchers to Frame a Pitc

I will also add this: Have you ever seen Stacey Neuvman frame a pitch? A ball is slightly off the plate and she makes an ever so suttle turn of the wrist. Same thing if the ball is just a tad bit low. She is on the Olympic team so I hope that satisfies your level of play concerns.
 
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Re: Don't Ever Teach Your Catchers to Frame a Pitc

My two cents worth. Over the weekend in the 14u division, I had a left handed catcher. The scenerio is a right hand batter, right hand pitcher.


Just before the pitch comes in, the left handed catcher moves to the outside, leaving me clearly exposed. Of course, I don't move. I stay put. The pitch comes in and she is sitting up on the outside corner (glove side for her) and the glove up and down position. This catcher, as an umpire you know she is setting up on the very corner with no room to spare. The pitch comes in and she tilts her glove ever so slightly and catches the ball in the webbing of her glove instead of the palm.

Needless to say, it is a ball... but not by much at all and the crowd goes nuts becuase she is so skilled in her glove techniques they even think it is a strike. I laughed with the catcher and told her she was good. She turned around and said, " If I get just one and the one is a third strike, third out, then I done my job, right ?" She and I had a great laugh for we both knew this is so true. So, so true.
 
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Re: Don't Ever Teach Your Catchers to Frame a Pitc

Watch the MLB playoffs. I saw every catcher framing close pitches. They may have not got every call but they framed anyway.
 
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Re: Don't Ever Teach Your Catchers to Frame a Pitc

Is this what you mean by framing a pitch..... ;D

broken.gif
 
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Re: Don't Ever Teach Your Catchers to Frame a Pitc

Looks like a Statics problem from my college days. :-?
 

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