Drop third stike rule?

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This happened to us this past weekend. The opposing team had the third base dugout. The opposing team was batting. One out, runner on third. The batter takes third stike, catcher drops the ball. The batter did not see the catcher drop the ball so she starts walking to her dugout. After she takes about five or six steps, coming within inches of their dugout, the catcher does not throw the ball to first. She figures the batter was out since she was returning to her dugout. The catcher then focus's her attention on the runner on third so that she does not try and steal home. Then out of no where the batter starts running behind the catcher toward first base. The catcher then throws the ball to first to get the out. The girl on third did not try for home. It really was no big deal to me, but I asked the umpire to clearify the rule for me because I, my catcher and everyone watching thought that since approx. 10-15 seconds went by and she turned and went to her dugout before she started to first, that she was already out. The umpire told me that as long as the batter stayed in fair territory that she could go anywhere and take as long as she wanted before running to first. I then asked, so she can go to her duggout fence, talk to her coach then run to first and she can be safe as long as she beats a throw. He told me that as long as she stayed in fair territory, YES. Can someone please confirm if this is right.

 

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Sounds like you got a good explanation from the umpire.

The batter-runner cannot be declared out until she is either put out by the defense or steps into a dead ball area before reaching first base.

The defense bears some responsibility for knowing the correct rule and making the appropriate play.

 

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Same thing happened to us last summer. It was with 2 outs and runners on 2nd and 3rd. Girl walks almost all the way back to the dugout our players were heading to the dugout and she started to run to first. Of course our pitcher had already dropped the ball at the mound. Girl is safe at first, runner scores from third and still 2 outs. I got on line and asked and expert can not remember all his credentials, but they were impressive. He agreed with your ump. They have all the time they want unless they go in dugout. Now if the ump would have called her out, that is another story. Below is the link. I hope it helps in the future.

http://www.allexperts.com/cl1/19/Sports/

 

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Thank you, I accepted his explination because he seemed to know what he was talking about,(go figure...LOL) and I myself was not sure about that one. Especially when she ran behind our catcher. I thought her first reaction had to be toward first. It was a good call and he explained it well. Thank you again.

 

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We have had this one happen to us a few times. Just best to check runner at 3rd and make a quick throw to 1st. Then make sure runner on 3rd hasn't left. If has no problem throwing them out at home. We work on this throw in practice, catcher to first then back to home.

Another thing happened to us somewhat similar is that we had umpire in field call 3rd out on a play at 1st. Runner on 3rd ran home. Since third out we just dropped ball and headed to dugout. Play at first appealled. Field ump checked with home plate ump and called runner safe at first. So we said then run on third should go back to since it was a dead ball appeal. The umps said no. We fought it but they said it was the way it was with no explanation. We were upset. Luckily it didn't affect the outcome of the game. Bretman or some one help out here? Shouldn't the runner have been put back on 3rd because once the out was called by the field ump on the play at 3rd it was a dead ball situation. So the runner couldn't have scored since it was a dead ball situation. :-?

 

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Must be contagious, we had the same thing happen in fall ball. My question is, what route does the runner have to take. If they are heading back to the third base dugout, I'm assuming they have to run back through the batter's box and down the line. What about if their dugout is on the first base line and they are almost in. Can they just run straight to first from the dugout?

 

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Ringer I think they have to run through the dugout then to 1st base don't they? ;D ;D

 

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PBS,

The answer to your question lies under the often-ignored Rule 10. That is the "Umpires" section of the ASA rule book.

Rule 10-3 states: "The plate umpire may rectify any situation in which the reversal of an umpire's decision or a delayed call by an umpire places a batter-runner, a runner or the defensive team in jeopardy."

Where any affected runners are placed after this play is solely umpire judgment and that judgment should take into account all of the circumstances surrounding the play.

In your example, let's suppose that the runner on third was not advancing when the out was made at first. If the runner scored after the call, and scored strictly because the defense had abandoned their efforts to play on this runner in reaction to the initial out call, the runner should be placed back on third.

If, however, the runner was advancing and would likely have crossed the plate regardless of the call at first, the run could be counted.

The plate umpire must judge the relative positions of the runners, take into account how the defense reacted to the initial call, determine the most likely outcome had the call not been changed, then place the runners accordingly.

By the way, your "dead ball" argument doesn't fly here. Contrary to popular belief, the ball IS NOT automatically dead on a third out call. Further action may proceed, such as an advantageous "fourth out" appeal. Examples would be appeal plays on other runners for missing a base or leaving early on a caught fly ball, thus negating runs from scoring.

Ringer,

The runner can take any route to first base, provided she does not step into dead ball territory on the way there.

 

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Bret,
Lat me ask a curveball question... The young lady returned towards the third base dugout area, but didn't get into foul territory. Couldn't that then be seen as retreating backwards while running to first and then be out for that?

Just a thought...

 

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I'd like some opinions on whether this is a well written rule or not. Personally I'd like it changed to read something along the lines of the batter has some limits on the area around home plate as her departure point , meaning if she leaves the batters box "area" , heads more than 3 steps (or some defined area) ?towards her dugout she loses the choice to make a run towards 1st base, and can be called out. This stuff of sprints from the dugout area towards 1st after a dropped 3rd is crazy , creates too much confusion. ? ?
Am I forgetting some scenario that would make such a rule a bad idea ? I can see teams in the future doing this intentionally to steal a run , and thats just bad for the game. ? MD

 

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Hilliarddad,

That is a common theory I have heard many times when discussing this play.

Only problem is that the rule you are applying says that the batter-runner is out if she retreats back toward home to avoid or delay a tag by a fielder. (Rule 8-2-H)

Absent a fielder with possession of the ball, and actually attempting a tag of the runner, that rule does not apply here.

Another variation is that the defense might argue that the B/R "left the base line" with her circuitous path to first. But there again, leaving the basepath can only be applied when it is done to avoid a fielder attempting a tag.

 

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Have to agree with MD on this one. This is just a bad rule ... inconsistent with the running out of the baseline rule.

 

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Manitou,

Just this year, professional baseball instituted a new rule that says, on an uncaught third strike, the batter is out when he leaves the "dirt circle" surrounding the home plate area without advancing toward first base. That rule was in response to the infamous D3K play from the 2005 American League Championship, where the White Sox benefited from the confusion surrounding a play similar to what we are discussing.

So far, this rule has not filtered down into the amateur ranks, and certainly not into the softball world.

The best defense against a team "stealing a run" is to have a catcher who is aware of the rule and savvy enough to know that if there is any question on the catch she needs to complete the play.

 

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Have to agree with MD on this one. ?This is just a bad rule ... inconsistent with the running out of the baseline rule.

See my previous response. This is 100% consistent with the running out of the baseline rules. That rule only applies when a tag is being attempted. With no tag being attempted, runners are not bound to follow any defined baseline- or basepath, which is an entirely different concept.

 

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Bretman so the dead ball isn't correct. ?I did leave out that the runner never broke towards home until the ball was thrown to the first baseman. ?I argued that the lady would have been out if we would have to had to make a play on her at home plate. ?They said you didn't so she scores. ?So they way you described that it should have been called was unfortunatley not the decision the umps came up with. ? > > ?Well at least this didn't cause us to loose the game. ?Thanks for the clarification Bretman! ? ?

As to the original question the rule does seem to vague and should be modified. ?Bretman take care of that for us will you? ? ;D ;D

 

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If it was in my power to make rule changes- and, believe me, it's not!- I would probably eliminate the whole uncaught third strike rule and say if it's a strike, you're just plain out. That would sure simplify things!

Whether or not the umpires at your game made a good call is almost impossible to say for certain without having seen the play. I could assume that the runner took a good lead-off when the pitch was released, and possibly even guess that she moved toward home a bit more before the throw was made. If she took off then, it's not hard to imagine that she was quite close to the plate when the first baseman received the throw and would have easily scored.

Those are all things that have to be taken into consideration when applying Rule 10-3. A more likely guess- and this is still just a guess- is that the umpires weren't fully aware of the implications from their delayed call, the application of 10-3 or that they even had the option of placing the runner back on third.

On this play, it is the defense that has been "put in jeopardy" by the delayed call. So when sorting things out, I would tend to tip the scale in favor of the defense (return the runner) unless it was pretty obvious that the runner would have scored anyway.

 

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This happened to during one of our games this weekend. ?We are on offense, runner on first, 2 outs. ?Batter misses strike 3 and the catcher drops the ball. ?Our batter starts to run to first. ?Plate umpire yells "OUT". ?Batter stops running toward 1st, catcher throws ball to 2nd in an attempt to get the runner advancing from 1st to 2nd, runner is safe. ?After prompting (you can imaging what kind of prompting) from the coaches, batter starts running again to 1st and arrives safe without a play.

Defensive coaches argue that since the umpire called "OUT", that the catcher did not have to tag or attempt a play on the batter.

After the umpires have a conference, the following ruling:

"Batter is safe at first, runner is safe at second. ?If the catcher did not think that she had to make a play on the batter, which would have been the 3rd out, then why did she throw to 2nd? ?It is the player's responsibility to know the rules and when they apply."

 

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This happened to during one of our games this weekend. ?We are on offense, runner on first, 2 outs. ?Batter misses strike 3 and the catcher drops the ball. ?Our batter starts to run to first. ?Plate umpire yells "OUT". ?Batter stops running toward 1st, catcher throws ball to 2nd in an attempt to get the runner advancing from 1st to 2nd, runner is safe. ?After prompting from the coaches, runner starts running to 1st and arrives safe without a play.

Defensive coaches argue that since the umpire called "OUT", that the catcher did not have to tag or attempt a play on the batter.

After the umpires have a conference, the following ruling:

"Batter is safe at first, runner is safe at second. ?If the catcher did not think that she had to make a play on the batter, which would have been the 3rd out, then why did she throw to 2nd? ?It is the player's responsibility to know the rules and when they apply."

This is grounds for a Pinella moment after that explanation.

 

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This is grounds for a Pinella moment after that explanation.

A Pinella moment would be an understatement Ringer. ? > :-X

I think we need to start the "Bretman Umpire School" to get everyone up to his level. ? ;D