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Ringer....I wanted to get the it out there a while ago it just took me 23 years to learn how to modify my user name.... explains why I am a lions fan ;D ;D
Pitching and Pitchers Discussion "Drop" vs. "Fastball" - Fact or Fiction
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Chosen
My intent with my comments more often than not is to generate others into thinking in terms of how to help players improve. The comments about letting them fail were intended to generate a thought process for those who read this post. Based on the responses I got it accomplished the goal.
Coaches, players, and parents never want to see failure. Myself included. But EVERY game is won or lost based on just that principle. Someone fails. I have seen that fear in my daughters face as a pitcher. Many a coach has seen that standing on a 3rd base line or in a dugout. If they understand the mindset of their players in a given situation.
This is as much about learning how to deal with those fears of failure on an emotional level as it is about throwing the perfect pitch in the right situation. Often, if you can get a player past that fear of failure the performance will improve in dramatic ways. The average player becomes an above average performer. The all star becomes the the superstar of the team. But players never grow on an emotional or performance level without learning to understand, confront, and overcome fear. Thier biggest fear? Failure and letting the team down. Have talked with may a crying player after a game for just this reason.
If you do not allow them to be placed in those situations then when your at a critical point in a game where you need that perfect pitch or that big hit, will they come through for their team? Not if you dont prepare them on a mental and emotional level to handle the pressure of that situation.
Yes, If they have overcome that fear of failure.
Elliott.
My intent with my comments more often than not is to generate others into thinking in terms of how to help players improve. The comments about letting them fail were intended to generate a thought process for those who read this post. Based on the responses I got it accomplished the goal.
Coaches, players, and parents never want to see failure. Myself included. But EVERY game is won or lost based on just that principle. Someone fails. I have seen that fear in my daughters face as a pitcher. Many a coach has seen that standing on a 3rd base line or in a dugout. If they understand the mindset of their players in a given situation.
This is as much about learning how to deal with those fears of failure on an emotional level as it is about throwing the perfect pitch in the right situation. Often, if you can get a player past that fear of failure the performance will improve in dramatic ways. The average player becomes an above average performer. The all star becomes the the superstar of the team. But players never grow on an emotional or performance level without learning to understand, confront, and overcome fear. Thier biggest fear? Failure and letting the team down. Have talked with may a crying player after a game for just this reason.
If you do not allow them to be placed in those situations then when your at a critical point in a game where you need that perfect pitch or that big hit, will they come through for their team? Not if you dont prepare them on a mental and emotional level to handle the pressure of that situation.
Yes, If they have overcome that fear of failure.
Elliott.
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IMO the pitchr pressure is to great and agree with Elliot that they should be able to work on their game as the other players are throughout the weekend. Everyone points to the pitche and not the batter who k'd in the clutch or the RF who dropped the routine flyball. Or to take it even further the girl who hesitated and didn't take the extra base in the 4th inning that would have scored the winning run on the following batter's single instead of now being first and third with two outs and the next batter ends the inning.
Are pithcer's imprtant heck yeah but they should be allowed the same gametime work as the other 9 players or we would be playing the king and his court not a 9 player game.
Are pithcer's imprtant heck yeah but they should be allowed the same gametime work as the other 9 players or we would be playing the king and his court not a 9 player game.
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This sport is a game of failure we all understand that but as a coach, no matter what sport, it is our job to put athletes in a position to succeed as best we can.
If a pitcher needs to be motivated by failure they might not have the mindset to be in the circle or they need a different type of motivation behind them. Any pitching coach that would expect their pitcher to throw a certain pitch before it is effective in practice is setting up the player to fail in a sport which is already full of failure.
Game time is time to use the best you have at that time. Practice is the time to experiment and develope.
If a pitcher needs to be motivated by failure they might not have the mindset to be in the circle or they need a different type of motivation behind them. Any pitching coach that would expect their pitcher to throw a certain pitch before it is effective in practice is setting up the player to fail in a sport which is already full of failure.
Game time is time to use the best you have at that time. Practice is the time to experiment and develope.
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[highlight]If a pitcher needs to be motivated by failure they might not have the mindset to be in the circle or they need a different type of motivation behind them. Any pitching coach that would expect their pitcher to throw a certain pitch before it is effective in practice is setting up the player to fail[/highlight]
Dont think I ever stated I would send a pitcher out there who had not practiced a particular pitch and expect them to succeed or place them in a position to fail.
My expectation would be if they can throw it in practice they should be able to take it to the field and use it. Will they be consistent with it on every attempt? Probably not. Will they have confidence in it? Probably not. That doesnt mean they should quit trying to throw that pitch in a game.
This isnt about being motivated by failure as much as understanding that failure happens and that even when it does you should not quit trying at any level of the game.
Elliott.
Dont think I ever stated I would send a pitcher out there who had not practiced a particular pitch and expect them to succeed or place them in a position to fail.
My expectation would be if they can throw it in practice they should be able to take it to the field and use it. Will they be consistent with it on every attempt? Probably not. Will they have confidence in it? Probably not. That doesnt mean they should quit trying to throw that pitch in a game.
This isnt about being motivated by failure as much as understanding that failure happens and that even when it does you should not quit trying at any level of the game.
Elliott.
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Spirit1 said:
My thoughts exactly Spirit1. ?
Well, this thread has certainly taken an interesting turn.
I understand the need for the pitcher to gather her courage to start actually bringing out that new pitch she's been working on (especially if the game is a scrimmage or if the score gives her a little breathing room).
But if she really doesn't feel it's ready for prime-time and has already let the coach know that, why force it? ?It will only lead to hurt feelings if it doesn't work, embarrassment, and a pitcher who maybe won't trust her coach as much in the future.
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Spirit1.. I agree that it is our job as coaches to put the players in a position to be succsessfull. And you are correct that game time is game time and practice is for experiment and development... My question to everyone is "What is the definition of success ????? Is it winning everygame, teaching the game, making them better ball players for the future...... My example behind this is I coached a 16u travel team last summer and had 13 girls on the team but and only 1 had any travel expierance. (we were a late addition to the Org. and had a lot up pick up players) After the first weekend when we went 1 and 6 I realized that I needed to step back and not worry about winning but developing these girl so they would be able to be succsessfull down the road. The next couple tourneys I coached to teach and not to win( I know it sounds dumb in some peoples mind) We worked on all the liitle stuff that makes good teams great.(small ball, communication, defense. ect.) Now we only finished the year 8 and 28. Does not seem to succsessful in some eyes but the last weekend we went 3 and 4 with 3 losses being by 1 run to the teams that finished 1st , 2nd and 4th in tourney and beat the best 16u team in our own Org 7 to 2. Still was not the most succsessful results that you want in a tourney but at least they played some competitive softball and had fun doing it....
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643 stated:
[highlight]After the first weekend when we went 1 and 6 I realized that I needed to step back and not worry about winning but developing these girl so they would be able to be succsessfull down the road. The next couple tourneys I coached to teach and not to win[/highlight]
I commend you for your approach. IMO the most difficult situation in softball as a coach is taking a bunch of Rec players into a select tournament situation with the intent to make them a select team. Even more so if the coach doesnt have any kind of idea what they are getting into at the time. Many problems can and often do occur.
It would be my recommendation that even before you head that direction you spend some time at select tournaments understanding and learning the differences between Rec and Select ball. Then as 643 found out you spend the majority of your time working on the fundimentals of good defense and hitting.
I have suggested to other coaches that have decided to go this route that they not even hit a select field until they have practiced for at least 3 months. Not many take that advise I might add.
I spent my fall mentoring a 12 U coach on how to run a select team. He like 643 needed to drop back and work on the basics. In the period of about 6 weeks you could see a much improved team. A team who at their last tournament went 7 games deep into the bracket. Very satisfying for me to watch. I too coached to teach not to win in this instance. Often when you take the time to do that then the winning will take care of itself.
I think 643 is on the right track with his approach.
Elliott.
[highlight]After the first weekend when we went 1 and 6 I realized that I needed to step back and not worry about winning but developing these girl so they would be able to be succsessfull down the road. The next couple tourneys I coached to teach and not to win[/highlight]
I commend you for your approach. IMO the most difficult situation in softball as a coach is taking a bunch of Rec players into a select tournament situation with the intent to make them a select team. Even more so if the coach doesnt have any kind of idea what they are getting into at the time. Many problems can and often do occur.
It would be my recommendation that even before you head that direction you spend some time at select tournaments understanding and learning the differences between Rec and Select ball. Then as 643 found out you spend the majority of your time working on the fundimentals of good defense and hitting.
I have suggested to other coaches that have decided to go this route that they not even hit a select field until they have practiced for at least 3 months. Not many take that advise I might add.
I spent my fall mentoring a 12 U coach on how to run a select team. He like 643 needed to drop back and work on the basics. In the period of about 6 weeks you could see a much improved team. A team who at their last tournament went 7 games deep into the bracket. Very satisfying for me to watch. I too coached to teach not to win in this instance. Often when you take the time to do that then the winning will take care of itself.
I think 643 is on the right track with his approach.
Elliott.
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A very wise pitching coach (Ron Marstiller) once told our DD with respect to a particular pitch she was developing that if she didn't hit a batter at least once during a game, she wasn't throwing that pitch enough. It's not that Ron wanted her hitting batters; he wanted her to keep working on the pitch in game situations despite the relative risk that the new pitch would hit the batter much more frequently than the pitches that she'd already been throwing in games for a couple of years. A by-product of this advice was, I think, a part and parcel of what Elliott is describing: if she hits a batter or walks one in a crucial situation, at some level she feels badly for her college teammates as a result of that batter, but usually you couldn't tell by looking at her and she steps up pretty well for the next one in the box. It's the same with hanging a pitch. She's made these mistakes enough in her years of pitching that she understands it's going to happen sometimes, but she has also successfully thrown enough of these pitches to know that what goes around can and often does come around.
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CGS,
Well stated.
Elliott
Well stated.
Elliott
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A good "manager" solicits recommendations from his/her assistants and that includes a player's personal pitching coach. I am not a pitching coach so I turn my player's pitching coach for their input and recommendations. I have four pitchers on my team where 3 go to one pitching coach and the 4th goes to another. My associations with these pitching coach has led me to have complete faith in their assestments and recommendations. I have good communications with them and if they recommend that the pitcher starts to impliment a particular pitch into her game, that is what I will do but it is my decision on when the pitch is to be use. That I can "manage". I report the results of the pitchers work to their pitching coach and we discuss progress and current and future plans. They also demonstrate what to look for with their pitchers and to identify improper mechanics, etc.
This has worked extremely well and the results have been outstanding.
The pitching coaches frequently attended the games to observe their students. After the game, we will discuss what he has observed, etc. Using this, I learn, the player learn and the team is better. JMHO
This has worked extremely well and the results have been outstanding.
The pitching coaches frequently attended the games to observe their students. After the game, we will discuss what he has observed, etc. Using this, I learn, the player learn and the team is better. JMHO