Hitting and Hitters Discussion Five frame swing

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I have read a good pro has this. - 5 frame swing.

I have RVP capture program and can go from 5% to 120% on the speed of the swing of the MLB players and the FP players.

I can load my dd swing on there and also go from 5% - 120%


How do I know how many frames it takes for my dd to swing or any player. Should my DD be a 5 frame swinger?

Is that the goal to be a more efficient hitter.
Is a 7 frame hitter as good as a 5 frame hitter.

Is there a 4 frame hitter?


Man am i full of questions. :yahoo:



Straightleg

 

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Straightleg, are you on BBF?

 

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Not very often, but yes



Straightleg

 

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I am MAXX on there as well. I am near Cambridge and coach at Wheeling Jesuit University.....you?

 

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Thanks.

Just a coach of fastpitch and basketball ( lower levels) learning and talking about hitting.
Im a student of Howard

Younger dd 13 rec, older dd 15 travel. boy 2nd grade basketball, starting over again!!


How about the question of the 5 frame swing.




Straightleg

 

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Straightleg, I also have RVP. What is your starting point for your five frames? Heel plant, toe touch, elbow slotting or something else. If I start going frame by frame with the included clips from heel plant to contact, I see 8 to 12 frames but I suppose it would depend on the pitch speed, how long the hands stay back before releasing.

 

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Hey fellas I am fairly new to the RVP software. I have played with it a few times but I am still learning my way around it. I may need Straightleg or someone to adopt me on this.)

 

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I have read a good pro has this. - 5 frame swing.

I have RVP capture program and can go from 5% to 120% on the speed of the swing of the MLB players and the FP players.

I can load my dd swing on there and also go from 5% - 120%


How do I know how many frames it takes for my dd to swing or any player. Should my DD be a 5 frame swinger?

Is that the goal to be a more efficient hitter.
Is a 7 frame hitter as good as a 5 frame hitter.

Is there a 4 frame hitter?


Man am i full of questions. :yahoo:



Straightleg

Toe touch, front elbow drive, back elbow slot , heel plant, thru the zone

 

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Steve Englishbey uses the reference of the "5 frame swing" as a comparator to what he sees MLB players do. RVP deinterlaces it's video captures, and in the process, converts 30 frames per second video into effectively 60 frames per second video. Deinterlacing gets rid of the "double image blur" you see when freezing typical camcorder video, but it gives the added bonus of giving you essentially twice the frames you started with. So you get more frames of video to analyze - a good thing. For some great rainy-day reading, Google "deinterlace video" and enjoy!

Bottom line = Englishbey's "5 frame swing" reference becomes a "10 frame swing" reference (30 fps converted to 60 fps) when viewing the pro clips provided with RVP. The measurement begins at the initiation of the swing and ends at contact.

Is that confusing enough??

 

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http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/special/2002-07-09-bonds-swing.htm

Get to this address and look for photo motion....Former all star Tony Gwynn discusses Bonds swing frame by frame in the video touch next to see and hear what he has to say.

Then go to the right side and read anatomy of a swing and how they did it.

 

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Good stuff as always Howard. Other than a wider base, there is alot of the same mechanics in an Albert Pulholtz swing. Do you agree? it would be cool to see this and a frame by frame of the pitcher at the same time. I too was taught to take the knob to the ball growing up. Is this something I should practice with my DD?

Thanks!

 

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Steve Englishbey uses the reference of the "5 frame swing" as a comparator to what he sees MLB players do. RVP deinterlaces it's video captures, and in the process, converts 30 frames per second video into effectively 60 frames per second video. Deinterlacing gets rid of the "double image blur" you see when freezing typical camcorder video, but it gives the added bonus of giving you essentially twice the frames you started with. So you get more frames of video to analyze - a good thing. For some great rainy-day reading, Google "deinterlace video" and enjoy!

Bottom line = Englishbey's "5 frame swing" reference becomes a "10 frame swing" reference (30 fps converted to 60 fps) when viewing the pro clips provided with RVP. The measurement begins at the initiation of the swing and ends at contact.

Is that confusing enough??

Sammy when you watch a swing on rvp what speed do you set it on to get a 10 frame swing.



Straightleg

 

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I too was taught to take the knob to the ball growing up. Is this something I should practice with my DD?

Thanks!

No, worst thing you can do. Hands and knob inside the ball.

 

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I was wondering if anyone would pick up on what Tony said versus what he meant...he said take the knob of the bat towards the ball and then said the hands are inside the path of the ball.

On Sports Skool he did the same thing and took a lot of **** over it. This is why Crystl and I keep hammering the point (get it) that the hand path is inside the path of the ball so you will always think every pitch is in, in, in and adjust away. Make a good first move with the lead arm elbow then release your wrist as to the balls depth in box and location.

This is why when you see hitters who have been taught to swing down on the ball or level easier to strike out by changing the speed on the ball and locating further inside or outside and getting the two foul ball strikes because they are always pulling off the ball and are not in the big zone long enough.

Never take the knob of the bat to the ball.

 

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On the knob to the ball comment. This is why I am so glad Howard found time to work with my dd. the more people you talk to on instuction the more confusing it gets. Thanks for getting me straight!

Derek

 

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Some term the slotting of the elbow as the beginning of connection ie connecting the bottom half to the top half however you saw it. As the back elbow starts down to slot heel plant is starting to happen at the same time and the front leg is flexed or bent a little and it will begin to straighten out at contact. Exactly when it happens is just a little different for many as you may see the foot more closed on some a little more open on others and that is your style that feels comfortable to you.

 

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Straightleg,

I viewed several of the RVP baseball swings, and they are indeed 60 frames per second. If you really want to understand why that is, you have to read up on deinterlacing video. Be brave brother - it's a DEEP subject!

Some notes I made while watching several of the RVP baseball AND softball swings:

The fastest were 9 frames (Ichiro)
Most were 11 or 12 frames
Video I have of Caitlin Benji is 13 frames

These are all 60 frames per second, so divide by two to get your 5 frame swing comparison. I started counting frames JUST as the back elbow started dropping, well before slotting. I stopped counting frames at contact.

All players had slightly different technique getting to approximately the heel plant position, but all were nearly identical in terms of keeping the arms/hands connected, hip rotation, etc. from heel plant forward.
As Howard stated, some players initiate their swings differently, with slightly different timing, etc.

Keep in mind that this "five frame swing" as I timed it takes place in LESS than .2 of a second! (.167 to be exact) Minor fluctuations in timing are VERY hard to detect with the naked eye watching a full speed swing. It's why so many young boys in baseball have an uppercut swing - all they see is the finish.

IMO, simply reducing the frames needed in this sequence is not necessarily the solution to becoming a better hitter. The preparation leading up to this point in the swing can make or break what happens during the actual swing - and is usually a major part of the problem. Analyzing what is happening is one thing, but knowing how to make it all work together is another.

Having a knowledgeable person giving correct instruction is key. You want a quick swing, but you also want a POWERFUL swing. A short, wristy swing may be quick, but it surely isn't very powerful. The best in the world have a much longer bat path, but have figured out how to get the bat through the zone to contact very quickly. Learning how to create power AND speed should be the goal.

 

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Some good posts. Good point on the Big Zone and the longer bat path. Many seem to not understand this part of the swing. In our Gold- Silver clinic, Howard had many parents impressed that we actually measured off how long the bat was in the Big Zone and then could show the hitter the improvement.

 

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"Keep in mind that this "five frame swing" as I timed it takes place in LESS than .2 of a second! (.167 to be exact) Minor fluctuations in timing are VERY hard to detect with the naked eye watching a full speed swing. It's why so many young boys in baseball have an uppercut swing - all they see is the finish." quote per Sammy

We explain to our kids at the clinic that to have an idea of time for you to react to the ball could be explained by having the hitter blink their eyes as quickly as they can twice and this is about one second or less. Now the would mean in one blink of the eye (.50 seconds) or less the ball is at home plate so we must be at toe touch prior to her release.

We timed Jennie Finch and at her K position, ball directly over her head, and she brings it to her release point in 11 to 17 hundredths of a second and at release it crosses the plate in about .24 to .28 hundredths of a second.

So this would indicate that in about .420 to .450 hundredths of a second or less than a blink of an eye you must already be at toe touch and be ready to swing or you will never hit it.

Looking at the five frame swing concept is interesting however getting them into the attack mode is priceless especially when you see the smile on their face and they know and feel the difference.

 

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Howard - you are the master when it comes to breaking down the timing of, not only the swing and it's components, but how timing relates to the pitcher. No one before Howard ever told (or showed) me or my DD how to relate the pitcher's movements and related timing issues to hitting.

The batter MUST be in ATTACK MODE, ready to swing with NO WASTED MOTIONS, at precisely the correct instant. As Howard says, it's about "dancing with the pitcher". Howard has studied this stuff for years, and has it all broken down. After he explains it, you understand why your DD may be able to crush everything off a Juggs machine, but struggle with live pitching - especially change of speeds. Timing.

If you don't learn to dance well, you might not get invited to the dance floor as often as you'd like.